[00:00:00] Louise Allen: AI is not the goal. I hear so many people that say, we gotta go check this AI box. [00:00:05] AI is not the goal. The goal is to solve hard business problems using AI where you [00:00:10] can, but it's not gonna replace, especially product management. 

[00:00:14] Trisha Price: If you build [00:00:15] software or lead people who do, then you're in the right place. This is Hard [00:00:20] Calls, real decisions, real leaders, real outcomes. 

[00:00:24] Trisha Price: Hi, [00:00:25] I'm Trisha Price and welcome back to Hard Calls. Today is an exciting day. I [00:00:30] am recording live at Pendomonium, Pendo's user conference and I'm [00:00:35] so excited to get to talk to Louise Allen, who is the Chief Product Officer [00:00:40] at Planview.

[00:00:41] Trisha Price: And Louise has incredible experience. I [00:00:45] already heard from her today in Todd's keynote live on stage about Planview and [00:00:50] their launch of Anvi. I cannot wait for you to hear about it, and not just about their [00:00:55] agents and the value they're delivering to their customers, but how they're using AI to [00:01:00] build, how that's changing product, and blurring roles.

[00:01:03] Trisha Price: You're gonna be so excited to hear [00:01:05] from Louise about this. Also, Louise is a passionate about another topic that all of you know I'm [00:01:10] passionate about as well, which is diversity and inclusion. So I'm excited to talk [00:01:15] about not just how we build with AI, how we deliver outcomes with AI, but the [00:01:20] people who use it.

[00:01:21] Trisha Price: So welcome to the show today Louise. 

[00:01:23] Louise Allen: Thank you so much for having me. [00:01:25] 

[00:01:25] Trisha Price: Thanks for being here. So before we get into AI and all the awesome [00:01:30] things, okay. The show is called Hard Calls. 

[00:01:32] Louise Allen: Okay. 

[00:01:33] Trisha Price: And we call it Hard calls because as [00:01:35] you know, as a product leader 

[00:01:36] Louise Allen: Yep. 

[00:01:36] Trisha Price: That's our job every day. 

[00:01:37] Louise Allen: Mm-hmm. 

[00:01:38] Trisha Price: We get squeezed, right?

[00:01:39] Louise Allen: Yep. 

[00:01:39] Trisha Price: The board has [00:01:40] amazing opinions about what we're supposed to do. 

[00:01:42] Louise Allen: Yes. 

[00:01:42] Trisha Price: So does customers. 

[00:01:43] Louise Allen: Yes. 

[00:01:43] Trisha Price: Every sales guy [00:01:45] and woman. 

[00:01:45] Louise Allen: Yeah. 

[00:01:46] Trisha Price: If you just build this one feature, Louise, everything's gonna be great. 

[00:01:49] Louise Allen: Yeah, totally. Never heard [00:01:50] that, ever. 

[00:01:50] Trisha Price: And then the CFO wants us probably to spend less and do things faster.

[00:01:54] Louise Allen: Yeah. 

[00:01:54] Trisha Price: [00:01:55] So that's why we call the show Hard Calls. So, to kick us off, I'd love for you to share a hard call [00:02:00] that you've had to make as a product leader. 

[00:02:01] Louise Allen: Yeah. I'll tell you. Yeah. I think the most recent [00:02:05] one was, we're going through a product operating model shift in our company, right? So we talk to our [00:02:10] customers about this all the time.

[00:02:11] Louise Allen: So we've had to reorg and make some really hard decisions to [00:02:15] kind of go, we're building a platform and kind of go off, away from kind of individual [00:02:20] product capabilities to a platform. So the organization looks really different [00:02:25] because of that. So, you know, most recent hard calls, what that looks like.

[00:02:29] Louise Allen: And there's, [00:02:30] there's people that have been with the company a long time that are individual product people, right. And then, you know, [00:02:35] and just the, so it's just changing your org based on, and that was just a really tough [00:02:40] one because there's, there's people that, you know, did a great job getting us here, that that future looks [00:02:45] very different.

[00:02:45] Louise Allen: Right. So that's. It's tough to have those conversations and do that, but it's the best thing for the [00:02:50] company, right? To set us up for the future. So not a hard, not an easy one to [00:02:55] go through, but the right thing to do 'cause we preach that to our customers all the time. You know, we gotta think about the outcome and products are the [00:03:00] outcome.

[00:03:00] Louise Allen: So how do you organize yourself that way? And so, yeah, I think that honestly [00:03:05] is the most recent thing that, that's been pretty tough to do. 

[00:03:07] Trisha Price: That is a hard call. I've had to go through something [00:03:10] similar at a prior company. You know when you're kind of aligned more with individual [00:03:15] products or product areas 

[00:03:16] Louise Allen: Yup.

[00:03:17] Trisha Price: People get really attached. 

[00:03:19] Louise Allen: Oh yeah. 

[00:03:19] Trisha Price: And [00:03:20] that's a good thing in some ways. Yes. It's because they feel accountable almost. It's as the CEO of their product. 

[00:03:24] Louise Allen: That's right. [00:03:25] 

[00:03:25] Trisha Price: And that's wonderful. But it's to your point, 

[00:03:27] Louise Allen: Yes. 

[00:03:27] Trisha Price: Not always the way of the future. 

[00:03:29] Louise Allen: That's exactly. [00:03:30] Especially if it's in an acquisition.

[00:03:31] Louise Allen: If you're acquiring a company and you're killing their dream, 'cause you're right. [00:03:35] All that kind of thing. So, you kind of know right away if someone's able to, are you gonna [00:03:40] be a big a Planview company person or are you gonna stay your product person? And it's, we've just [00:03:45] got done this enough times that you can kind of tell.

[00:03:47] Louise Allen: But, and our best product leaders now have come from, [00:03:50] a lot of 'em have come from acquisitions and have been able to think more broadly and be great product leaders and, and kind of [00:03:55] out of their mentality of just my product. But it's a tough thing to do for a lot of people. It's not for [00:04:00] everybody.

[00:04:00] Trisha Price: It's, it is a tough thing to do. 

[00:04:01] Louise Allen: Yeah. 

[00:04:02] Trisha Price: And you know, speaking of change [00:04:05] management. In our world today, it isn't, you know, sometimes it's, "hey, [00:04:10] you gotta make major changes to your product 'cause your product's not so successful." 

[00:04:12] Louise Allen: Yeah. 

[00:04:13] Trisha Price: Sometimes it's, you came from an [00:04:15] acquisition. 

[00:04:15] Louise Allen: Yeah. 

[00:04:15] Trisha Price: And now you've gotta think bigger.

[00:04:16] Louise Allen: Yeah. 

[00:04:17] Trisha Price: And now, it's how we [00:04:20] operate every day. And I know you talk today about the blurring of the lines [00:04:25] and roles. 

[00:04:26] Louise Allen: Yeah. 

[00:04:26] Trisha Price: You know, some companies have been on an operating model change [00:04:30] from project manager to product manager, and now it's product manager to [00:04:35] outcomes. 

[00:04:35] Louise Allen: That's right. 

[00:04:35] Trisha Price: And platforms and AI.

[00:04:37] Louise Allen: That's right. 

[00:04:37] Trisha Price: Talk to me and talk to our listeners about how have [00:04:40] you led your team through that kind of change? 

[00:04:42] Louise Allen: You know, and we've talked about in product management [00:04:45] for years and years, you gotta have to make bets. We have to make bets now quicker than ever [00:04:50] and it's with probably less information than we've ever had.

[00:04:52] Trisha Price: Yeah. 

[00:04:53] Louise Allen: So it's, you're able, you [00:04:55] need to make a bet, but be able to pivot quickly. And we, you know, talk to our customers. We used to do annual [00:05:00] planning and we'll do that and, and I'll laugh when people ask us about three year roadmaps. I'm like, I can barely [00:05:05] tell you confidently in the next six months, to nine months. Right?

[00:05:08] Louise Allen: So it's just, it's just [00:05:10] hyper change as you, as you were saying, but you've got to be able to pivot. It's just the. It's gonna be the [00:05:15] norm, right? We all have to be able to operate in this uncomfortableness and, but more than ever, I [00:05:20] think about this a lot about, we've just gotta make a bet, an intelligent bet, and then be able to pivot if it's [00:05:25] wrong.

[00:05:25] Louise Allen: But it just, there's no three year, you know, go do something for in the next three years. 

[00:05:29] Trisha Price: [00:05:30] Maybe a vision of things, maybe. 

[00:05:31] Louise Allen: Potentially. 

[00:05:32] Trisha Price: But not a feature in a product roadmap. 

[00:05:34] Louise Allen: No way. And [00:05:35] just so I, you literally have had customers ask me that. I'm like, no, you don't want me to do that 'cause it's gonna be wrong.

[00:05:39] Louise Allen: [00:05:40] So it's gonna change, so don't ask me to do that.

[00:05:42] Louise Allen: But yeah, it's just been a, it's a very interesting [00:05:45] time for product leaders and I think, and as I said on stage a few minutes ago, I think it's just a [00:05:50] ripe opportunity for product management to take the lead on this. Right? So I, I think the product [00:05:55] management is finally getting it to due. I think it's the, the world and the market is coming to us a [00:06:00] bit. 

[00:06:01] Louise Allen: You know, we see banking customers and healthcare customers, and [00:06:05] just any industry now asking us about product management, which they didn't even know how to spell product management [00:06:10] before. Right? 

[00:06:11] Louise Allen: And we see them making the mistake that they're changing project managers in a product manager [00:06:15] without, it's not the same thing.

[00:06:16] Louise Allen: It's not the same discipline. Product manager's very, I mean, I'm, you [00:06:20] know, all this better than anybody. It's a end-to-end business role. Right. I think it's so [00:06:25] important right now in this time of change that we have that product management run through that door and lead this change because [00:06:30] no one else is going to do it and we, this is just a right product management [00:06:35] exercise and just sits on hyperdrive, right? 

[00:06:37] Trisha Price: It is. I love You said that on stage and you just [00:06:40] repeated it. That product is a business role. 

[00:06:42] Louise Allen: Yes. 

[00:06:42] Trisha Price: And you know, when I was at [00:06:45] Pendo I got, like you do, to meet product. 

[00:06:48] Louise Allen: Yep. 

[00:06:48] Trisha Price: Leaders, product teams [00:06:50] across the world. 

[00:06:51] Louise Allen: Yes. 

[00:06:51] Trisha Price: And I've come in and and built or [00:06:55] expanded product organizations multiple times.

[00:06:58] Trisha Price: And I love that you [00:07:00] said it's a business role. Yes. 'cause I say that all the time to people when I come in. You can tell when someone is not [00:07:05] product led or they don't have true product management, when they'll say something to product like, "well, we need to [00:07:10] bring business people to the table." 

[00:07:11] Louise Allen: Yeah. 

[00:07:11] Trisha Price: And it's like, well. Who are the bus? We're the business people 

[00:07:14] Louise Allen: Better stare at [00:07:15] your, yeah. Look at the hand. 

[00:07:16] Trisha Price: We are the business people. And I think to your point, when you think about traditional [00:07:20] companies or companies early in their journey to really understanding what product.

[00:07:23] Louise Allen: Yep. 

[00:07:23] Trisha Price: They may be [00:07:25] burying product in the CTO organization or thinking about them as [00:07:30] requirements people.

[00:07:31] Louise Allen: Yes, that's right. 

[00:07:31] Trisha Price: Or BAs, or,

[00:07:32] Louise Allen: That's right. 

[00:07:33] Trisha Price: And, and those roles have been [00:07:35] necessary historically. 

[00:07:36] Louise Allen: Yes. 

[00:07:36] Trisha Price: But they're not business product roles. 

[00:07:38] Louise Allen: No. 

[00:07:38] Trisha Price: And that is. The way of the [00:07:40] future and AI just yes, accelerates this need so much. 

[00:07:44] Louise Allen: [00:07:45] A hundred percent agree. And yeah, it, it's been an interesting mentality, especially for younger and [00:07:50] career product managers 'cause they think I'm just gonna go work with development. And, it's just not, if [00:07:55] you don't own your end-to-end business, you're not gonna, I mean we've talked about this for a year, you're not gonna have everybody report [00:08:00] to you. But if you don't think about your end to end business, no one else is thinking that way 'cause everybody's thinking in there.[00:08:05] 

[00:08:05] Louise Allen: We bring all that together and that's where product management and CPOs are [00:08:10] so, I mean, fascinating conversations with like a big bank going, pulling me aside [00:08:15] saying, "should we have a CPO?" Their CIO, pull me aside and I'm like, "yes, you should." Define what a [00:08:20] product is in your company. And, well, where should it report? The CEO.

[00:08:24] Trisha Price: Yeah. 

[00:08:24] Louise Allen: There's no way you [00:08:25] bury that if you're really, you know, committed to this product op, the [00:08:30] product model 'cause that's what you're delivering and the value, you've gotta have a CPO. And I know, [00:08:35] actually I got this from Pendo, that is like 40%, we have 40% of Fortune 500 now has [00:08:40] CPOs.

[00:08:40] Louise Allen: It's great. It was 8% before COVID. It's exploding. 

[00:08:44] Trisha Price: Exploding. 

[00:08:44] Louise Allen: And [00:08:45] that just shows you that product management is becoming this business role that has to lead from the front a [00:08:50] hundred percent 

[00:08:50] Trisha Price: Has to lead from the front. 

[00:08:51] Louise Allen: Yeah. 

[00:08:51] Trisha Price: And you know, I love that [00:08:55] statistic and I think almost every company is a software company now.

[00:08:58] Louise Allen: Absolutely. 

[00:08:59] Trisha Price: And then every [00:09:00] software company is now gonna be an AI company. 

[00:09:01] Louise Allen: That's right. 

[00:09:02] Trisha Price: That's right. And using AI internally just [00:09:05] makes us faster. 

[00:09:05] Louise Allen: Yes. 

[00:09:06] Trisha Price: But it doesn't make us, better. 

[00:09:08] Louise Allen: Yes. 

[00:09:08] Trisha Price: I mean, it can provide us better data [00:09:10] to be better. 

[00:09:10] Louise Allen: That's right. 

[00:09:10] Trisha Price: But you still have to have the product mindset 

[00:09:12] Louise Allen: A hundred percent, yes.

[00:09:13] Trisha Price: To ship. 

[00:09:14] Louise Allen: Yeah. I talk a lot about this, [00:09:15] that AI is not the goal. I hear so many people that say, we gotta go [00:09:20] check this AI box. AI is not the goal. The goal is to solve hard business [00:09:25] problems using AI where you can, but it's not gonna replace, especially product management. [00:09:30] Right? It's the strategy and how get there and all of these things, it makes our job easier, to your point.

[00:09:34] Louise Allen: And [00:09:35] we have a lot more data to make good decisions on. But yeah, it's, we, you've gotta be really [00:09:40] careful that we're not just jumping, which is why I think 95% is not successful right [00:09:45] now because you're just doing it to, as a checkbox. You need to be able to measure what you're trying to [00:09:50] do and what hard problems AI helps you solve.

[00:09:52] Louise Allen: And it's like. I laugh about this like four or five years [00:09:55] ago, "Agile", it was, everybody's going to Agile, right? Agile's not never been the goal. 

[00:09:59] Trisha Price: Right? [00:10:00] 

[00:10:00] Louise Allen: No. Agile's a, you know, a methodology to get to an outcome, but the [00:10:05] outcome's not agile. And I think that's where it fails. And I'm hoping that AI does not do the same thing.

[00:10:09] Louise Allen: 'cause that's [00:10:10] kind of where we're headed right now. 

[00:10:11] Trisha Price: Yeah. 

[00:10:11] Louise Allen: So I think it's up to product management to use AI to [00:10:15] solve, you know, a problem for customers or value. And that's where we preach this all the time to our [00:10:20] customers too. 'cause our product measures the value of AI and their, and what their initiatives, that type of [00:10:25] thing.

[00:10:25] Louise Allen: So it's, we see this trap because every, you know, it's the thing and we gotta go. 'cause the, like you said, the [00:10:30] board's asking us about it, we gotta go check that box really fast. But gotta be really thoughtful [00:10:35] about how it can help and it then, it then that when it starts really makes a big business difference that we've seen.[00:10:40] 

[00:10:40] Trisha Price: And you clearly have done that with Anvi. 

[00:10:42] Louise Allen: Yes. 

[00:10:42] Trisha Price: Right? Yes. And so we've talked a little bit about [00:10:45] using AI to build, but you've built an incredibly powerful and [00:10:50] valuable agentic feature with Anvi. Tell us a little bit about that. 

[00:10:54] Louise Allen: We were [00:10:55] super fortunate about four or five years ago, we bought a very small company that had data scientists in it. [00:11:00] And they had built a nice product using, so we got a headstart in that. So it [00:11:05] was, we're better lucky than good, kind of is what I would say. Right. 

[00:11:08] Louise Allen: So we got a headstart on [00:11:10] that, but we really have been thoughtful about we're building and, and I love what Todd was [00:11:15] saying, um, today about the intelligence.

[00:11:17] Louise Allen: 'cause that's where we think the value is. The automation, everybody's gonna do [00:11:20] that. Right? So great, we'll have that too, but being really thoughtful [00:11:25] about, again personas and use cases that were these, you know, are [00:11:30] helping people. I love the blank thing he was showing today as well. No one knows where to start, so we have to be able to [00:11:35] show him where to start.

[00:11:35] Louise Allen: And the art, we do AI workshops all the time about what's the art of the [00:11:40] possible for AI. You dream it, we can tell you if we can do it or not, or whatever. So we're trying to have [00:11:45] those type of conversations instead of just automation, 'cause I think automation's just gonna be table [00:11:50] stakes. But Anvi is just gonna be, it's interesting, uh, the core of what we do. We [00:11:55] don't, you know, we, we sell it right as, as part of our platform, but [00:12:00] I want that to almost disappear.

[00:12:01] Louise Allen: It's just gonna be the product going forward. Right? Yeah. It's just what the UI looks like. [00:12:05] Probably looks so different in a year or so than, than the way it does now, so just Anvi is going to be the [00:12:10] product. 

[00:12:10] Trisha Price: Yeah. 

[00:12:10] Louise Allen: So going forward. So it's, you try to say that to somebody out loud and explain how that's gonna [00:12:15] work. It's difficult, but that's what, where product management comes in. That's the magic of product management right there. 

[00:12:19] Trisha Price: [00:12:20] It's, and you know, Todd talked about Legos And foundation. And taste today. [00:12:25] Right? Those are characteristics, like you've said about great product managers. They [00:12:30] understand the building blocks. They understand 

[00:12:31] Louise Allen: Yes. 

[00:12:32] Trisha Price: The value, they understand the jobs to be done in the persona. [00:12:35] 

[00:12:35] Louise Allen: That's right. A hundred percent. 

[00:12:35] Trisha Price: And, and that's how you develop taste and product sense. 

[00:12:37] Louise Allen: That's exactly right. 

[00:12:38] Trisha Price: And it hasn't changed. [00:12:40] It's actually increased in importance because of the pace. [00:12:45] And you know, clearly you focused on that with Anvi..

[00:12:47] Trisha Price: I love your approach to Anvi, which [00:12:50] is, you know, combining data scientists, AI first [00:12:55] builders. 

[00:12:55] Louise Allen: Yes. 

[00:12:55] Trisha Price: From an acquisition 

[00:12:56] Louise Allen: Yes. 

[00:12:57] Trisha Price: With your [00:13:00] deep product expertise 

[00:13:02] Louise Allen: Yep. 

[00:13:03] Trisha Price: That you have and have had [00:13:05] for a long time. And your point of view that Anvi becomes the product of the [00:13:10] future. 

[00:13:10] Louise Allen: That's right. 

[00:13:11] Trisha Price: And I agree with you.

[00:13:12] Trisha Price: It's, it's this really interesting [00:13:15] hybrid time right now. 

[00:13:16] Louise Allen: Yes. 

[00:13:16] Trisha Price: Between, most people haven't built [00:13:20] all of their product capability into their agents. Whether it's automation, right. [00:13:25] Whether it's conversational. 

[00:13:26] Louise Allen: Yep. 

[00:13:26] Trisha Price: Whether it's through MCP or direct through your product. 

[00:13:28] Louise Allen: Right. 

[00:13:29] Trisha Price: And so there's still [00:13:30] like this traditional point and click 

[00:13:32] Louise Allen: Yes.

[00:13:32] Trisha Price: Interface that exists, but we all [00:13:35] know majority of that's going away. 

[00:13:37] Louise Allen: Yes. 

[00:13:37] Trisha Price: And that agents are just gonna automate a lot [00:13:40] of what happened in the point and click interface, but also [00:13:45] what a lot of the end users had to do. 

[00:13:49] Louise Allen: Yes. [00:13:50] 

[00:13:50] Trisha Price: And it's not replacing people, it's augmenting people, but it certainly [00:13:55] makes them more scalable and efficient.

[00:13:56] Louise Allen: Yes. 

[00:13:57] Trisha Price: And in some places might mean you need less. 

[00:13:59] Louise Allen: Yes. 

[00:13:59] Trisha Price: [00:14:00] People to do the work. 

[00:14:00] Louise Allen: Yep, depending. 

[00:14:01] Trisha Price: Which is a change for our customers to. 

[00:14:04] Louise Allen: Yes it is, [00:14:05] absolutely. You know, we, because part of what our platform does is managing [00:14:10] capacity of people. And individual, you know, people management, and now [00:14:15] we say hybrid now means we're gonna manage agents as well, right? 

[00:14:19] Louise Allen: And I love [00:14:20] what Todd said today about the governance layer 'cause we work with a lot of large enterprise. There's [00:14:25] no way they're just gonna say, yeah, go build your own agent and do all this stuff, right? There's got to be [00:14:30] governance around this.

[00:14:30] Louise Allen: Governance is not a bad word. I write about this a lot too 'cause you need governance around [00:14:35] this and it's really important that you have that. And look, that's one of the reasons why we're really excited about that. You know, [00:14:40] partnering with Pendo as well on this, but I so believe that. But it's, you're, you're right, the mix of [00:14:45] how many your agents, how many people, and that's every one of our customers are dealing with that question [00:14:50] right now.

[00:14:50] Louise Allen: But I believe very strongly it is gonna maybe, [00:14:55] you know, get rid of some of the, or, have a have a trimmed down workforce in some [00:15:00] areas. But I also believe humans become even more important. 

[00:15:02] Trisha Price: Agree. 

[00:15:03] Louise Allen: Right. So you know, I think what [00:15:05] IBM has done is really interesting in hiring 20,000 very young [00:15:10] people and train them in AI instead of expecting everybody to know it and, you know, organically [00:15:15] do that.

[00:15:15] Louise Allen: So I think that's really smart because I think that's the future, honestly, to do that. But [00:15:20] anyway, it's, it's a very interesting time and how we manage agents and govern those [00:15:25] things. And who can push the button is the other thing, 'cause not everybody should be able to push the button. 

[00:15:29] Trisha Price: That's right. That's [00:15:30] right.

[00:15:30] Louise Allen: And, and an audit trail and can you undo these things? And you know, so it it's some very [00:15:35] interesting, tough questions coming that we're, that we're trying to think through right now. And again, [00:15:40] where the, what is it, where the puck is going, this is where you need to skate. So that's the bet you're trying to make and, and [00:15:45] figure out, uh, what the need is gonna be in a year or so.

[00:15:47] Trisha Price: And I know you've written a lot about [00:15:50] mistrust of AI. 

[00:15:50] Louise Allen: Yes. 

[00:15:51] Trisha Price: And I agree with you that governance is a [00:15:55] piece of that. 

[00:15:55] Louise Allen: Yes. 

[00:15:55] Trisha Price: It's also transparency, right? 

[00:15:58] Louise Allen: Yes. A hundred percent. 

[00:15:58] Trisha Price: When you've built Anvi. [00:16:00] When I've built agentic experiences. It's like how do you get people to [00:16:05] trust? 

[00:16:05] Louise Allen: Yes. 

[00:16:06] Trisha Price: Is a big piece is transparency.

[00:16:08] Louise Allen: It is. It is. 

[00:16:08] Trisha Price: Let me tell you what I've [00:16:10] done for you. 

[00:16:10] Louise Allen: That's exactly right. And audit trail around agents and all of that is, you're right. I think [00:16:15] that is super important because they're not, the trust is not there yet. 

[00:16:18] Trisha Price: Yeah. 

[00:16:18] Louise Allen: Right. And it's not, [00:16:20] everybody's there and everybody's learning and, and we're getting better, but it, that, that just has to be there as a, [00:16:25] a go forward. I think 

[00:16:26] Trisha Price: I love today what you showed Louise from [00:16:30] Planview and Anvi on stage at Pendomonium, which was this really [00:16:35] interesting, solution way to solve this [00:16:40] hybrid world we're in. Of you still have things in your point and click 

[00:16:44] Louise Allen: Yes. 

[00:16:44] Trisha Price: SaaS [00:16:45] interface and then things that Anvi can do. 

[00:16:47] Louise Allen: Yep. 

[00:16:47] Trisha Price: And you had a really novel approach using [00:16:50] Pendo guides. That took you from your agentic conversational interface [00:16:55] and with helping guidance, over to your traditional interface. 

[00:16:59] Louise Allen: That's right. 

[00:16:59] Trisha Price: Talk to us [00:17:00] about how you did that, because I hadn't seen anyone do that before until today and I thought that was [00:17:05] really cool. 

[00:17:05] Louise Allen: Yeah, so actually Todd and I had talked about this a few months ago, and we got our really smart people together, a [00:17:10] data scientists, and everybody came to Austin and we brainstormed and, and came up with.

[00:17:14] Louise Allen: They [00:17:15] came up with this idea. I love it because, I mean, of course Pendo has been great at this for years, [00:17:20] but I think our users have struggled that everything, here's how you do all this, and you scroll and you [00:17:25] scroll and whatever. So it's, it's really interesting information, but show me exactly what to go do.[00:17:30] 

[00:17:30] Louise Allen: And I think what, what's, it's a great foundation, but can you imagine a future that, you know, [00:17:35] data quality issues that Pendo can point out? Right. And then, and have us point here. And [00:17:40] so you're making sure that, because I hear this all the time, like the data quality is customer's [00:17:45] biggest issue around.

[00:17:46] Louise Allen: That's great. You're looking at my data, but is the data really good? [00:17:50] Is a foundational piece. So I think Pendo can, you can see the future of how that can go. So I [00:17:55] think this is a great foundational thing to go do. And every customer's different, so they want their customized [00:18:00] things. Right, which is great.

[00:18:01] Louise Allen: And just the adoption goes through the roof. I just think the [00:18:05] usability walk up and use type of Enterprise software has got to get there. And I think AI can [00:18:10] certainly help with that, and I think what we've done here I think is a great first step. And our customers [00:18:15] love it.

[00:18:15] Louise Allen: I mean, it makes it makes it so much easier onboarding and because we'll have [00:18:20] 25,000 users come on at a time and so 

[00:18:22] Trisha Price: It's a of people.

[00:18:22] Louise Allen: It is. So you've got, 

[00:18:23] Trisha Price: And that's a big change [00:18:25] management exercise for 25,000 people at a time. 

[00:18:26] Louise Allen: That's all we do is big transformations. And that [00:18:30] the change is just normal and you've got to have that reinforcement because you're, and again, as the UI [00:18:35] changes and kind of starts going away more, right? So it's, it's more and more that we're more prescriptive [00:18:40] about what to go do.

[00:18:40] Trisha Price: It was so cool watching Anvi know, the type of question that you [00:18:45] ans asked to go and that you needed to go, you needed to go do something in point and click and that it, [00:18:50] Anvi, automatically triggered a guide. 

[00:18:52] Louise Allen: That's right. 

[00:18:53] Trisha Price: An in app guide. 

[00:18:53] Louise Allen: That's right. 

[00:18:54] Trisha Price: To walk the [00:18:55] user through what they needed to do in the traditional point and click interface.

[00:18:58] Louise Allen: That's exactly right. 

[00:18:58] Trisha Price: And it was so smooth and [00:19:00] seamless. 

[00:19:00] Louise Allen: Yeah, it was really it. We, again, we're getting great, uh, feedback from our customers around. It takes it [00:19:05] to the next level, so really, really exciting. 

[00:19:06] Trisha Price: That is great. 

[00:19:07] Louise Allen: Yeah. 

[00:19:08] Trisha Price: Well, I wanna ask you sort of a [00:19:10] different question, which is I've been fortunate enough in my career for many [00:19:15] people to see something in me and invest in me.

[00:19:17] Louise Allen: Yeah. 

[00:19:18] Trisha Price: And help elevate me to [00:19:20] where I am today. And I'm incredibly grateful, just had a podcast episode not too long ago [00:19:25] with Leyla Seka, who is, was an amazing executive at Salesforce over the [00:19:30] app exchange and huge supporter champion. Big [00:19:35] voice. 

[00:19:35] Louise Allen: Mm-hmm. 

[00:19:36] Trisha Price: In equality. 

[00:19:37] Louise Allen: Mm-hmm. 

[00:19:38] Trisha Price: And she definitely [00:19:40] helped me in my career. Ten plus years ago as well. 

[00:19:44] Louise Allen: Yep. 

[00:19:44] Trisha Price: [00:19:45] And um, I know you do that for others as well, so I'd love to hear a little bit about what [00:19:50] inspires you to do that. 

[00:19:50] Louise Allen: Yeah. 

[00:19:51] Trisha Price: And how can we encourage our listeners and people listening today. To pay [00:19:55] it forward, like 

[00:19:55] Louise Allen: Yeah. 

[00:19:56] Trisha Price: People have for us. 

[00:19:57] Louise Allen: Yeah. I think, and you're, you're, I'm a little, I'm a lot older than [00:20:00] you are, but, uh, you know, starting in our career, I was always the only woman in the room.

[00:20:04] Louise Allen: Right. And it [00:20:05] was so uncomfortable and have to, you know, work your way through that, that it's [00:20:10] motivated me. And I told myself at a very young age, if I ever get the opportunity and that, that I'll help. [00:20:15] Because that is a really hard place to be in, especially younger in career. So I've always said, [00:20:20] if you don't see it, you can't be it.

[00:20:21] Louise Allen: And so if you don't have women in those roles, and I'm so [00:20:25] fortunate that my counterpart runs development's, also a woman. So we helped found, [00:20:30] women at Planview, so that was kind of the foundation. But we both do a lot of mentoring. [00:20:35] It's just, I, you see young women just struggle because technology is, very [00:20:40] male dominated.

[00:20:40] Louise Allen: It's changing a bit. But, and how to, how to work your way [00:20:45] through those challenges is important. And you know, and I'm sure you have the same thing, it's, it's how [00:20:50] to find your voice. That you don't have to look at a man and say, that's exactly how [00:20:55] I need to be. I need to be my own authentic self in a leader and what's natural for me, but still be [00:21:00] effective.

[00:21:00] Louise Allen: That doesn't mean, I have to be nice to everybody, you know, and, you know, and all [00:21:05] smiles and, and that. So it's, I think that. Learning that style and what, [00:21:10] what's authentic for you. And then allowing other people to do that well, 'cause what [00:21:15] works for me is not gonna work for you. And, and so it's, that's, it's just a really, but, uh, so I try to, [00:21:20] the, the, the key to this is honestly is to get the men on board.

[00:21:23] Trisha Price: Yeah. 

[00:21:23] Louise Allen: Right. To have the men do the [00:21:25] mentoring and encourage, you know, women to have more opportunity. I mean, just, it's the same thing we've been talking about [00:21:30] forever, but it makes such a difference. And our women at Planview, we have a lot of [00:21:35] men that that participate and that just make, that's what makes it successful.

[00:21:38] Louise Allen: It's not just the women [00:21:40] pushing it. So, and your leadership needs to look. Yeah. Like the world does, right? 

[00:21:44] Trisha Price: If there's not [00:21:45] women at the table in your leadership team, it's gonna be a tough run. 

[00:21:48] Louise Allen: Yeah. We, we hired our, we have our first [00:21:50] board member that as, as a female on our board. 

[00:21:52] Trisha Price: Love it. 

[00:21:52] Louise Allen: Very proud about that. And we have six women on our [00:21:55] enterprise, or executive leadership team now. So we do [00:22:00] have a lot of role models for the rest of the company to look at. And that's what our small part, that's what we can do. And I think [00:22:05] that. I've seen such a difference in confidence in young women that we've talked to, but we got a long [00:22:10] way to go.

[00:22:10] Louise Allen: So it just, the most fun thing I do is mentoring and, if we [00:22:15] can make, and I do a lot of mentoring for men as well, because for this particular reason and how to [00:22:20] handle that. 'Cause you're gonna manage women, right? It's just, anyway, so I'm, I love that. So passionate about this [00:22:25] whole, I think in product management I'm seeing a lot of women strong product management leaders, which I just [00:22:30] love to see, so 

[00:22:30] Trisha Price: that is great.

[00:22:31] Louise Allen: Yeah. 

[00:22:31] Trisha Price: Well, people, the women at Planview. [00:22:35] All employees at Planview are lucky to have your 

[00:22:37] Louise Allen: Oh, thank you. 

[00:22:38] Trisha Price: Leadership and mentorship in this [00:22:40] space. I, and I know you share this, have such a firm belief that this isn't [00:22:45] only the right thing to do. Yes. Which it is, but it. Definitively creates better [00:22:50] business outcomes.

[00:22:51] Trisha Price: And if the only thing you care about is bottom line and top line, yep. This is still the right [00:22:55] thing to do. 

[00:22:55] Louise Allen: That's a hundred percent true. 

[00:22:56] Trisha Price: And I, I believe in it for more than just that. Yeah. But I really believe that. Me too. And [00:23:00] so for me, like I, women ask me all the time, where should I work? [00:23:05] How do I find the opportunities you've found?

[00:23:07] Trisha Price: And I give them the same advice you do, which is. [00:23:10] If you're going to work for a company where there are not women at the table, like it's [00:23:15] unlikely you are gonna have a sit at the table. 

[00:23:16] Louise Allen: You're gonna be the first. Yeah. It is really hard to be the first. 

[00:23:18] Trisha Price: Yeah. So, um, you know, I [00:23:20] really appreciate what you're doing, your voice.

[00:23:23] Louise Allen: We all need to do it.

[00:23:24] Trisha Price: Just to Planview, but [00:23:25] for all of us in product 

[00:23:26] Louise Allen: Yeah. 

[00:23:26] Trisha Price: And in technology. Um, and we all do need to do it. So [00:23:30] thank you for that. 

[00:23:31] Louise Allen: Yes. Absolutely. Yep. 

[00:23:32] Trisha Price: Well, Louise, thank you for coming to Pendomonium. Thank you for [00:23:35] being a part, a product of Todd's keynote today. Yes. Thank you for your partnership with Pendo [00:23:40] and Planview.

[00:23:40] Louise Allen: Absolutely! 

[00:23:41] Trisha Price: And thanks for joining Hard Calls. 

[00:23:42] Louise Allen: Yeah, thank you for having me. 

[00:23:44] Trisha Price: Thank you for [00:23:45] listening to Hard Calls, the product podcast, where we share best practices and [00:23:50] all the things you need to succeed. If you enjoyed the show today, share with your friends and come back for [00:23:55] more.