[00:00:00] Ed Case: Technology is getting better like every day, right? So what might've been [00:00:05] frustrating and a little bit clunky and required a lot of iteration a couple months [00:00:10] ago isn't really the case anymore.

[00:00:13] Trisha Price: If you build software or [00:00:15] lead people who do, then you're in the right place. This is hard calls, [00:00:20] real decisions, real leaders.

[00:00:22] Trisha Price: Real outcomes. 

[00:00:23] Trisha Price: Hi everyone, and welcome [00:00:25] back to Hard Calls, the podcast where we introduce you to some of the best product and [00:00:30] tech leaders who are making pivotal decisions that drive great products. And we're talking [00:00:35] about how AI is changing everything we all know about product today. [00:00:40] Before we get started, I'd like to invite you to like this episode or hit follow or subscribe so you [00:00:45] can stay up to date with all the latest podcasts.

[00:00:48] Trisha Price: Today I'm joined by someone [00:00:50] I get the pleasure to work alongside every day at Vantaca, Ed is our Director of [00:00:55] Product Design and User Experience. Ed Case is gonna talk today about how AI [00:01:00] is influencing the role of UX and design and not just influencing it. But [00:01:05] completely changing it and how he and his team are now coding as much as engineers.

[00:01:09] Trisha Price: [00:01:10] What's surprising about this is that Ed's background is in fine arts, not [00:01:15] software, although truth be told, he was a front engineer at one point. But I don't think that matters for the [00:01:20] point of this discussion and how AI is blending roles and changing how we operate [00:01:25] together. Ed has a unique perspective on how he thinks about form systems, [00:01:30] human experience using software, and I know you're gonna love hearing this discussion today.

[00:01:34] Trisha Price: So [00:01:35] welcome to the show, Ed. 

[00:01:36] Ed Case: Thank you so much for having me. I'm, I'm pumped to have this [00:01:40] conversation. I feel pretty honored. 

[00:01:42] Trisha Price: Yeah, I'm so excited [00:01:45] to not just talk to people with practicality about how UX [00:01:50] and engineering and product roles are changing and merging, but even more importantly, like [00:01:55] the outcomes and the velocity that you were able to deliver with some of the [00:02:00] changes.

[00:02:00] Trisha Price: So I think it's just gonna be a fun chat today. 

[00:02:02] Ed Case: Yeah, definitely. 

[00:02:04] Trisha Price: Well [00:02:05] Ed, as you know, this is Hard Calls. So before we get to jump into all the [00:02:10] fun of AI and UX and all the things I'd love for you to share [00:02:15] with our listeners, what is one of the most important or [00:02:20] hard calls you've had to make over your career?

[00:02:22] Ed Case: Yeah. Great question. Love the [00:02:25] concept, love the podcast. You know, as a designer, I think we're, we're making hard [00:02:30] calls every single day and we're typically in a position where we're advocating [00:02:35] for the user and we're having to make concessions sometimes based on feasibility with [00:02:40] engineering and you know, always sort of understanding where that line is to push back a little bit [00:02:45] on, on sort of the vision and that blue sky sort of ideal that we like [00:02:50] to design for, right? But thinking about a really hard call [00:02:55] for me and my career it was a few years back and I was [00:03:00] working in the legal space and I was working on a legacy application.

[00:03:03] Ed Case: That was built on [00:03:05] older architecture, lots of UX debt very large broad [00:03:10] scale application. And we had the incredible opportunity to do a rewrite, [00:03:15] right? And it's like that's every designer's dream is like, Hey you get a clean slate, you can [00:03:20] really clean up every piece of the experience that's always kind of bothered you that you were never able to go [00:03:25] after.

[00:03:25] Ed Case: And it was a really exciting time for us to sort of dream big and go after [00:03:30] this awesome goal of like. Rewriting the application. And we had a really significant [00:03:35] segment of our engineering team dedicated to this effort. You know, a [00:03:40] lot of enthusiasm and optimism as we started to sort of get this locomotive [00:03:45] going down the tracks and did some really awesome work.

[00:03:48] Ed Case: But one of the things [00:03:50] that was difficult about the effort, it was sort of a big bang approach where we were going to [00:03:55] finish. This whole project before we actually got it in the hands of our customers. [00:04:00] And of course, as we started to work through these different areas of functionality and features [00:04:05] scope started to creep, the timeline started to drag out.

[00:04:08] Ed Case: And you know, you're really [00:04:10] wanting this thing to succeed and you want this opportunity to kind of hit that [00:04:15] finish line and you could sort of see the writing on the wall a little bit [00:04:20] because. As a you know, as a side effect of that, our user base wasn't getting a [00:04:25] normal stream of releases and product enhancements and updates that they were used to.

[00:04:29] Ed Case: [00:04:30] And you know, the CEO called us in into the office and just really got a gut check [00:04:35] from us on, on how we felt and how much more time we were gonna need. And we had to make [00:04:40] the really hard call to end that project and one of the [00:04:45] most powerful things I learned through that experience was just like, Hey.

[00:04:48] Ed Case: You know, the value of the [00:04:50] increment what is that smallest thing that you can build and ship and get to your users and learn from and [00:04:55] continue to iterate. And you know, it really was our Achilles heel that we had this [00:05:00] sort of big bang approach behind this big initiative that, [00:05:05] that could have been awesome, but never really got to see the light of day, unfortunately.

[00:05:09] Ed Case: So [00:05:10] that was, that was a really hard call. Um yeah, put a lot of effort and [00:05:15] love into that project. 

[00:05:17] Trisha Price: It's always such a hard [00:05:20] thing for product managers, designers, engineers, like. When a [00:05:25] product has to die or you've put effort at something and you know, customers don't [00:05:30] end up getting to see the value of it.

[00:05:31] Trisha Price: So I appreciate you sharing that hard call. 

[00:05:34] Ed Case: Yeah. [00:05:35] Yep, definitely. 

[00:05:36] Trisha Price: So I've, I've talked about this on the podcast before. [00:05:40] All of us are talking about it right now. If you're not talking about it right now, you should be talking about it [00:05:45] right now. And that is that AI is absolutely changing our [00:05:50] craft. It is changing our roles and responsibilities.[00:05:55] 

[00:05:55] Trisha Price: And an outcome of that is it is massively [00:06:00] shrinking the amount of time from ideation to customer [00:06:05] value. So talk to me a little bit about [00:06:10] what this shift is like in practice, like as a [00:06:15] designer, but also just for the team. Like what does that mean? People can say, oh yeah, aIt [00:06:20] shrinks the time, but like, yeah.

[00:06:22] Trisha Price: I mean, we're not talking about two times, three times. We're talking about like a [00:06:25] hundred times. Yeah. And so then like, talk to me about a real example where [00:06:30] you've made this happen and like what did it look like? 

[00:06:32] Ed Case: Yeah, I think you know, early [00:06:35] on AI started to influence the way we worked and you know, there's these vibe coding tools and.

[00:06:39] Ed Case: [00:06:40] All of a sudden now product managers are, are building designs and you know, designers are playing around with [00:06:45] these like live functional prototypes. It's not just Figma anymore. Right. Like it's actually something [00:06:50] that can be launched and shared and socialized and um I think where it [00:06:55] really sort of turned a corner for us was actually like, hey, like.

[00:06:59] Ed Case: These, these [00:07:00] vibe coding projects are cool, but then when when we get to this point of a handoff, there isn't a lot of this [00:07:05] code that's reusable. There isn't a lot of this that we can necessarily leverage or use. Like the engineers are still sort of [00:07:10] sort of starting at square one, even though they might have a more thorough understanding of [00:07:15] like what we want to build and the experience we're trying to deliver.

[00:07:17] Ed Case: So we made, we made the [00:07:20] call of, of getting our designers set up in the code base, right? So they have [00:07:25] access to the repository, they're actually doing that prompting and that iteration [00:07:30] in the actual code base, leveraging the components that the code uses, that the application uses.[00:07:35] 

[00:07:35] Ed Case: And what that did for us was it, it really helped us push the boundaries of like feasibility. But [00:07:40] then when you come to a point of handoff to engineering, like the amount of velocity and momentum that's [00:07:45] there is incredible, right? Like, it's almost just like it, it started [00:07:50] where, hey, there was a cleanup pass, and then it, we've gotten so sort of good at it that it's like, okay, let's [00:07:55] get this to qa.

[00:07:56] Ed Case: You know, like it's that transformative and it pretty [00:08:00] tectonic of a shift when you think about how fast that's happened [00:08:05] in the scheme of like my career, I've never seen anything like it. 

[00:08:09] Trisha Price: Me [00:08:10] neither, ed. And you know, just to kind of piggyback [00:08:15] with re real examples of what Ed's talking about, [00:08:20] we set a big goal for the company to [00:08:25] update a major part of our product, right?

[00:08:28] Trisha Price: It's what residents, [00:08:30] homeowners log in to interact with their HOA. And [00:08:35] Ed, tell me how long before, sort of this last [00:08:40] quarter, and changes in the way you've used ai, et cetera. Did we probably [00:08:45] guess this project would've taken us? I think we had talked about doing it before, like 

[00:08:49] Ed Case: [00:08:50] Yeah. It's something that we've approached in phases because it ha [00:08:55] it has been so big.

[00:08:55] Ed Case: Like we've never even had the ambition to like do the whole thing, right? So [00:09:00] we've kind of broken it up into phases, but this is something that would take probably [00:09:05] a year or, or at least two, three quarters and then you know, how things go, [00:09:10] probably bleeds into to a year. And yeah, to [00:09:15] see what we've been able to do and how quickly we've be been able to, [00:09:20] 

[00:09:20] Ed Case: Sort of accelerate has been, it's been mind boggling. It really has. And it's changed the [00:09:25] way I think about my design team. And it's funny 'cause I've always sort of [00:09:30] advocated for designers to know about code and to get a little bit more intimate with the [00:09:35] code base. and you don't have to become an engineer, but I think it can only help your craft.

[00:09:39] Ed Case: [00:09:40] And that's really been, I think, a wise bet for us is to get our [00:09:45] designers a little bit more intimate with the code base. Becasue yeah, it's really [00:09:50] unlocked tremendous potential for us to tackle projects like this. But at the [00:09:55] end of the day, like drive outcomes, right? Like get stuff in the hands of our customers that is really meaningful [00:10:00] in a span of time that just, it wouldn't even been, been something that we would've like dreamed about in the past.[00:10:05] 

[00:10:05] Trisha Price: Yeah. Because the reality is you went from a year long project to [00:10:10] delivering completely new user experience in what, two [00:10:15] months? Not even. 

[00:10:15] Ed Case: Yep, yep. 

[00:10:16] Trisha Price: And that's while you were also being a designer on [00:10:20] multiple other projects and leading a team. So that's not like it was [00:10:25] full-time in terms of effort.

[00:10:27] Trisha Price: And you were able to do it with a much [00:10:30] smaller team. I mean, just a couple of engineers really, and not even them full-time, right? 

[00:10:34] Ed Case: [00:10:35] Yep, exactly. Yeah. I had, I had the help of a few backend engineers, obviously a [00:10:40] qa team member as well. And I think there was a lot of benefits to keeping the team [00:10:45] small and having that ability to really connect.

[00:10:47] Ed Case: And sort of [00:10:50] remove a lot of the noise that can come, like with the process of developing software and really just [00:10:55] roll up our sleeves and get after it, you know yeah, and it it did require some, some nights and some [00:11:00] weekends and things like that, but when you start to have that sort of velocity, it's hard to put it down.

[00:11:04] Ed Case: [00:11:05] You know, like, like you see these things coming to life that would've taken so long before and that [00:11:10] you would've had to really lean on so many other team members to get across the finish line. It just [00:11:15] becomes something that is can, can become an obsession. [00:11:20] 

[00:11:20] Trisha Price: So you talked a little bit about this always having wanted your [00:11:25] team to understand the code and be able to prototype, but tell [00:11:30] me like.

[00:11:30] Trisha Price: How did this change your relationship with engineering and [00:11:35] how do you see sort of the orchestration role and how everyone [00:11:40] works together? In this new paradigm? 

[00:11:43] Ed Case: Yeah. I think it [00:11:45] requires a team that's open-minded. And I think that it, that's gonna vary from [00:11:50] individual to individual. But I think when, when we're all working towards a common goal and [00:11:55] outcome, like you can find that alignment and I think there's, there's parts of front end [00:12:00] engineering that.

[00:12:01] Ed Case: Quite frankly, like front end engineers weren't crazy about doing [00:12:05] you know, like and a lot of those sort of nagging [00:12:10] details that the UX designers constantly like nudging them about like now they can sort of handle those things, [00:12:15] right? So I think. I found collaboration to be something that's been embraced, which has been [00:12:20] kind of pivotal.

[00:12:21] Ed Case: And just broader the company sort of mindset. You know, there's a lot of stories [00:12:25] I hear from colleagues where there's a lot of hesitation around embracing these processes and tools [00:12:30] and we're luckily in an environment where we can really sort of dig into it and push the [00:12:35] boundaries of what's possible.

[00:12:36] Trisha Price: Yeah. I liked how you mentioned when [00:12:40] you have a common vision and you're an empowered team. It's less [00:12:45] about whose role and who's doing what, and we're like, how do we work together to solve the [00:12:50] problem? Yeah. And who's best positioned to make good decisions and move [00:12:55] fast for the moment or for the day, or for the problem in front of us?

[00:12:59] Trisha Price: And I [00:13:00] think that's what makes a great team in any aspect. But when you're [00:13:05] moving this fast and you're iterating this quickly. It's just critical. [00:13:10] 

[00:13:10] Ed Case: Yeah, it really is. And and I think yeah, understanding the problem, [00:13:15] understanding that in a, in an intimate way and like these tools help us do that too as well, right?

[00:13:19] Ed Case: Like [00:13:20] being able to gather and synthesize data and telemetry to really gain strong conviction over like [00:13:25] what you're building and what that direction is is another like, key part of this, right? Like it's not [00:13:30] just about the coding, it's about the actual analysis of our direction [00:13:35] and. Really feeling great about the conviction.

[00:13:37] Ed Case: So [00:13:40] yeah, I think that we're learning and we're iterating and I think you're never going [00:13:45] to like nail it right out of the gate. and as long as you're willing to be open-minded and have a team that's [00:13:50] open-minded, you can iterate on the process. You know, early on we were just really. [00:13:55] Uh, boots to the ground moving quickly.

[00:13:56] Ed Case: You know, as we progressed through the project, we started to [00:14:00] take a step back and develop a little bit more documentation around what we were doing. 'cause that really feeds the, [00:14:05] the entire process and through to release notes and, you know [00:14:10] all that sort of thing. So yeah, we've, we've learned a lot as we've gone forward [00:14:15] and you know, it's been great to see the team embrace, embrace the methodology.

[00:14:19] Trisha Price: So we've, [00:14:20] we've talked about AI and you personally orchestrating to [00:14:25] generate this new experience. What tools do you use? Are you a cloud code guy? Like, tell me what, [00:14:30] how did, how did you actually make it happen? 

[00:14:32] Ed Case: Yeah. Um, so I am, I [00:14:35] like cloud code. I've used it. I personally like Cursor. I'm a visual person.

[00:14:39] Ed Case: [00:14:40] I like seeing the code that's being generated and looking at it, and not that you can't do that in cloud [00:14:45] code, but like the idea of, of this IDE environment and being able to [00:14:50] still be a little bit more hands-on with what's being created. I personally like a lot, I [00:14:55] think talking about like designers and other team members getting into code, I really like the ability to [00:15:00] like, highlight a piece of code and say why did you build this this way?

[00:15:04] Ed Case: Like, what is, [00:15:05] what is this doing? Like, like what's the thought process behind. This piece of logic and [00:15:10] that sort of thing. And I think that that can really you know, further your own [00:15:15] knowledge and intelligence on what's happening but give you confidence in the output that's being created. [00:15:20] 

[00:15:20] Trisha Price: I know that's helpful for our listeners 'cause people are always like, that sounds cute, but I tried it [00:15:25] and it didn't work.

[00:15:26] Trisha Price: I think Ed, tell me about. Perseverance, [00:15:30] like you got into the code base, you started using cursor, you started trying, I mean, I know it [00:15:35] didn't work the first time. I know you must have had issues found bugs, like [00:15:40] how do you get unafraid to keep trying and persevere [00:15:45] till you get results? 

[00:15:46] Ed Case: I think it's one of those things where even if there's some small wins, it [00:15:50] really feeds.

[00:15:51] Ed Case: Your desire to keep pushing. But you know, the [00:15:55] other thing to keep in mind that like as you're working through these things, like the technology is getting better like every day, [00:16:00] right? So what might've been frustrating and a little bit clunky and [00:16:05] required a lot of iteration a couple months ago. Um, isn't really the case [00:16:10] anymore.

[00:16:10] Ed Case: You know, like I've been using you know GPT 5.3 a lot, [00:16:15] and I've seen like huge advances in, in how good that's gotten and in the way [00:16:20] that I'm able to interact with that model. So I think that that's one, that's one thing I've heard from colleagues, [00:16:25] like, Hey, I tried this and it just didn't work.

[00:16:27] Ed Case: It was really frustrating. I thought, I thought it was quicker just to [00:16:30] do it the old way. And that was like a few months ago, like, you really need to [00:16:35] keep you know, interacting with it and keep trying it as, as the [00:16:40] technology gets better because we're really on like an exponential curve as far as like how quickly [00:16:45] these models are improving and how good the technology is.

[00:16:49] Trisha Price: Yeah. [00:16:50] Well, flipping gears a little bit from. [00:16:55] UX sort of blending into product and blending into engineering [00:17:00] and AI code generation. Another huge part of [00:17:05] UX is. Research and really understanding [00:17:10] how users are going to interact with what you're trying to build. What is their true job to be done and the [00:17:15] problem to be solved.

[00:17:17] Trisha Price: And I know AI can help with that as well. 

[00:17:19] Ed Case: [00:17:20] Yeah. 

[00:17:20] Trisha Price: Right. And so for example, you can. Just 'cause you can design and build and ship [00:17:25] faster. You can still design and build and ship something people hate in this, 

[00:17:29] Ed Case: that people [00:17:30] don't like. Yeah. 

[00:17:30] Trisha Price: Right. So how do you balance that? Like now we've all got these expectations, [00:17:35] we can go from ideation to like delivering to customers so fast, which [00:17:40] is true, but how do you still make sure it's awesome?

[00:17:43] Ed Case: Yeah. Yep. Uh, that's a, that's [00:17:45] a really good question. Yeah, I think the tools have given us and empowered us in ways [00:17:50] that to really dissect research and analysis and customer calls and discovery [00:17:55] in ways that weren't possible before. But I also think that as we're able to move really fast and [00:18:00] iterate really fast, like.

[00:18:01] Ed Case: You know, having a small like beta group or early access group that you can [00:18:05] get these things in front of people is, is huge, right? Because they're gonna [00:18:10] help you validate. Whereas before this process might've looked like, Hey, let's get this [00:18:15] Figma prototype in front of our customers and see what they think and iterate.

[00:18:18] Ed Case: Like, now let's, let's deploy this [00:18:20] feature to them, right? And do the same thing. And I think that's a [00:18:25] huge part of it is just being able to have. A stack that is [00:18:30] flexible and adaptable to be able to allow you to deploy quickly. Um, because you can iterate [00:18:35] fast, you can change things fast, you can learn really fast.

[00:18:37] Ed Case: Um, so I think it's just a matter of [00:18:40] blending all of these tools that we have access to from an analysis and discovery perspective and [00:18:45] from an iteration and like validation perspective as well. 

[00:18:48] Trisha Price: Yeah, I mean, you said you [00:18:50] said it well, which is why build a prototype. And get on a bunch of phone [00:18:55] calls to hear what people think.

[00:18:56] Trisha Price: If I can actually ship the real experience and put all behind a feature [00:19:00] flag for a closed group and shoot, why not create three different [00:19:05] experiences and see which one works and maybe one works for a certain persona. [00:19:10] And another works for another. Right? Maybe it's a different first time user experience than it [00:19:15] is an experienced user.

[00:19:17] Trisha Price: And now we can do that. 

[00:19:18] Ed Case: Yeah, exactly. And I think [00:19:20] learning has always been you wanna learn as early as possible, right? Because that's when it's least expensive to make [00:19:25] changes. But that expense now has definitely shrunk. And [00:19:30] I think when it's in the real world is when you're gonna learn the most.

[00:19:32] Ed Case: Like there's no hypotheticals, there's no [00:19:35] scenarios. It's it's customers interacting with the product and with their [00:19:40] data, with their day to day. So I think you always learn more once something actually hits. [00:19:45] Production, although you try to learn as much as you can leading up to that. But you know, I think that's [00:19:50] a, that's a really interesting part of it is that like now you can get things out much quicker and that [00:19:55] learning is, is that much more rich and trustworthy.

[00:19:58] Trisha Price: Yeah, I think [00:20:00] you know, to your point about upfront, there's no replacement for taste or product [00:20:05] sense. Like when you deeply understand the problem you're trying to solve, when you deeply can [00:20:10] understand the user and their needs and what they're trying to do. [00:20:15] Um, which only comes from spending time in the problem and spending time with users and customers.[00:20:20] 

[00:20:20] Trisha Price: And I say users and customers because we at Vantaca I know this [00:20:25] particular project and so many of our listeners have a similar product, are in this B2B, B2C world. 

[00:20:29] Ed Case: [00:20:30] Mm-hmm. 

[00:20:30] Trisha Price: Right. And our customers. Want one thing from us. Their [00:20:35] customers who are also interacting with our software want something else.

[00:20:39] Trisha Price: And I think it [00:20:40] is really easy from a product management and design perspective when you're building in the B2B, [00:20:45] B2C world to only rotate on what your [00:20:50] customer needs. 

[00:20:50] Ed Case: Yeah. 

[00:20:51] Trisha Price: And only listen to them in terms of their lens of [00:20:55] what their customer and end user needs versus whether you're using [00:21:00] research, direct communication or product telemetry and usage data.[00:21:05] 

[00:21:05] Trisha Price: Actually getting the facts of the end user and what they need. 

[00:21:08] Ed Case: Yeah. Yep. No, that's [00:21:10] a great point. And you know, you're tr it's definitely a balancing act and you're walking. [00:21:15] A fine line. And it's sometimes it's really difficult to get [00:21:20] that sort of validation and discovery and interaction with that like C component, right?[00:21:25] 

[00:21:25] Ed Case: But that's where tools like Pendo are huge, right? Because then you can actually. Um, [00:21:30] watch replays, you can set funnels, you can really get just high quality [00:21:35] telemetry on how that end user is using the product, and even through surveys in ways that you wouldn't [00:21:40] be able to have those touchpoints. Um, it really makes all of those things possible.

[00:21:43] Ed Case: So that's another piece I think that's [00:21:45] really important to our sort of tool set is our [00:21:50] ability to measure, right, our ability to really feel good about. We're driving the right [00:21:55] outcomes and you know, not, it's not just a gut feeling, right? Like we have hard data to show that. [00:22:00] 

[00:22:00] Trisha Price: Yeah. And it's not about only shipping faster and velocity, [00:22:05] it's about faster velocity to those outcomes.

[00:22:07] Ed Case: Yep. 

[00:22:08] Trisha Price: And we had very specific [00:22:10] goals around improvements to the end user experience and how that [00:22:15] showed up and their ability to get things done in our product. And we have dashboards [00:22:20] to measure that within Pendo, and I think that's critical because it's faster time to outcome, not just [00:22:25] faster time to ship.

[00:22:26] Ed Case: Yep. A hundred percent. A hundred percent. 

[00:22:29] Trisha Price: So [00:22:30] Ed, for anyone out there who is sort of [00:22:35] starting to adopt ai, maybe they're using some of the really cool [00:22:40] prototyping tools out there out there, like lovable or bold or V zero, like [00:22:45] what's your, what's your advice to them to move from like, hey. We [00:22:50] got to prototyping and discovery and a command of what we wanna build faster to [00:22:55] know, like you can turn this whole world upside down and do what you thought took a year in a [00:23:00] month with half the amount of people.

[00:23:02] Trisha Price: Like, how do I do it? What's your advice? [00:23:05] 

[00:23:05] Ed Case: Well, I think you definitely need the support of, of your organization, but when you have these sorts [00:23:10] of possibilities that should be something that you can really round up that [00:23:15] support pretty easily. I think getting access [00:23:20] to the code base, like that's a huge part of it.

[00:23:21] Ed Case: And I also think that understanding version [00:23:25] control, like understanding GI and how to commit code, how to push pull requests, these are things [00:23:30] that probably aren't in the wheelhouse of the typical designer or pm but they're [00:23:35] not crazy concepts. And I think there are things that you can learn really easily that can allow [00:23:40] you to seamlessly sort of engage with the development life cycle, right?

[00:23:44] Ed Case: So. [00:23:45] Um, I think the other thing too is just pushing the boundaries. Like if you, if you're not able to [00:23:50] do it within your application, like play around with it on your own. Like if there's an idea, [00:23:55] like push the boundaries, see what's possible, because I think you'll be surprised. I know, I know. [00:24:00] I have been. Um just playing around with ideas, like I said, it, it becomes something that's difficult to [00:24:05] put down.

[00:24:05] Ed Case: Um, so definitely. Don't [00:24:10] get complacent and also don't get frustrated. Continue to push the technologies [00:24:15] improving. Um, try to get the support of your organization behind giving [00:24:20] you access to code. You know, you can be in your own branch where you're not gonna break anything. [00:24:25] Um learn.

[00:24:25] Ed Case: Learn about version control. Learn about how your, how your company or your [00:24:30] product delivers you know, from a CI perspective and that sort of thing. [00:24:35] So yeah, I think those are really practical steps and keep learning, keep listening to [00:24:40] podcasts like this because you know what's, what's true today.

[00:24:43] Ed Case: You know, in a few months is, is gonna be [00:24:45] completely different. 

[00:24:46] Trisha Price: You know, that's great advice. And you know, you said something which is like, if [00:24:50] you're not quite there from a company perspective, whether people aren't allowing you or you don't have enough [00:24:55] knowledge, do something on your own. And I know something when we had [00:25:00] our on site for product just a few weeks ago that everyone [00:25:05] did, and I also know my friend Dave Killeen recently on his [00:25:10] podcast shared what he's done, which is around. [00:25:15] Creating your own operating system or your own personal [00:25:20] assistant and like while that's not the same as generating production code and delivering [00:25:25] outcomes to the customer, it still can be an amazing productivity hack and product [00:25:30] and design tool. And that's something we all did together that I think got maybe [00:25:35] some of the less technical people in the room, maybe a a step more comfortable.

[00:25:39] Trisha Price: With [00:25:40] using these types of tools. 

[00:25:41] Ed Case: Yeah. Yep. I think it's a great sort of case [00:25:45] study that produces a really meaningful outcome, right? Like, hey, if I can become more efficient [00:25:50] and automate a lot of my tasks, yeah, this might not be something I'm shipping to my customers, but I'm walking through the [00:25:55] paces of how to use these tools to build something that's valuable and useful.

[00:25:59] Ed Case: Right? And yeah, that's [00:26:00] something that we're looking at right now is like a design os like how can we really get our [00:26:05] designers. To a place where they're doing the work that they love and is most meaningful and [00:26:10] automating anything that we can and synthesizing data from calls and meetings and really [00:26:15] getting everything sort of on a t for them to come to work each day and focus their energy on the [00:26:20] most important things.

[00:26:21] Trisha Price: Yeah, I mean, and the key to [00:26:25] that operating system working well, whether it's a design operating system or a product operating system [00:26:30] is one. You know, you giving it the right [00:26:35] information and too much information can also be an issue, but more importantly [00:26:40] is really connectivity to all the right tools.

[00:26:42] Trisha Price: Yeah. And whether that's through MCP servers [00:26:45] like the one Pendo has or also. You know, we're getting access to call transcripts, we're [00:26:50] getting access to support tickets. Being able to, your point around feedback to [00:26:55] bring all that information together into your operating system is really what [00:27:00] drives the value and the true scale and automation.

[00:27:03] Ed Case: Yeah, no, a hundred percent. And [00:27:05] I think the more of those sort of entry points that you have it's [00:27:10] amazing. Like what's possible, like, like even for us, like having access to our database schema, [00:27:15] right? And asking questions like how things are related and how they work. Like, man, you, that [00:27:20] would be so difficult to get that information you know, a year ago.

[00:27:24] Ed Case: And now all of [00:27:25] that is right at our fingertips. So, yeah, I think, 

[00:27:27] Trisha Price: or even the code base, right? Like we recently had an [00:27:30] example where even if you're not committing to the code base and making code changes, [00:27:35] taking all your documentation and having it look at the, look at, have, have [00:27:40] Claude look at the, the code base versus the documentation and just.

[00:27:43] Trisha Price: Did you document the [00:27:45] permissions and how it works properly? 

[00:27:47] Ed Case: Yep. 

[00:27:47] Trisha Price: You know, like things like that are such an [00:27:50] unlock that we haven't had access to before. 

[00:27:52] Ed Case: Yeah, no, that's a great point. and like kind of [00:27:55] thinking back a little bit to a previous question on like how do you get started, like that's another piece too.

[00:27:59] Ed Case: Like you [00:28:00] said, having the right tools connected, but then also like crafting that context in a way that's gonna be most [00:28:05] beneficial. That was one thing for us early on, like pulling designs into the code base. [00:28:10] It was a little bit clunky and it required a lot of touchup and it could be a little bit [00:28:15] laborious, but being able to really anytime that you have to [00:28:20] change or make a tweak, like documenting that so that the system can learn from it and you're [00:28:25] not repeating that again.

[00:28:26] Ed Case: Uh, we made huge strides in that, in that category. Being able to pull the [00:28:30] design into the code base and literally have it nail it like the first time, where before it [00:28:35] would take us four or 5, 6, 6 iterations. 

[00:28:37] Trisha Price: Yeah, I think the, the final piece that really [00:28:40] comes to mind for me, coming back to you generating code is qa.

[00:28:44] Trisha Price: And I [00:28:45] think the more you can bring automated testing and [00:28:50] test cases into your AI process, the more efficient it's gonna to be [00:28:55] to, because if you. Go really, really fast at producing code and then [00:29:00] have a manual testing bottleneck. Number one, you've, you've coded [00:29:05] really fast, but AI doesn't understand the per parameters of what success looks [00:29:10] like, and two, you just sort of move the bottleneck downstream.

[00:29:13] Trisha Price: So I think that's another key [00:29:15] thing for people and lesson learned is just really making sure you have [00:29:20] test automation in your AI process. Probably to an [00:29:25] extreme to really get the efficiency. 

[00:29:28] Ed Case: Exactly. Yeah. I totally agree with [00:29:30] you there. And that's something that we definitely baked in is to make sure that tests, test cases are generated.[00:29:35] 

[00:29:35] Ed Case: Um, test suites are running and executing prior to committing code. [00:29:40] Those things can become. Bolted onto your process to where you're not even necessarily thinking about it. [00:29:45] And if that initial documentation that you're building is good, it understands acceptance criteria and it [00:29:50] understands what needs to happen and, and what the code is doing.

[00:29:54] Ed Case: So, yep, [00:29:55] that's a great point. 

[00:29:56] Trisha Price: That's great. Well, ed, thank you so much for coming on the show [00:30:00] today. Uh, equally important or more importantly, thank you for your [00:30:05] leadership and efforts to go outside the lines of [00:30:10] ux. And really help us ship [00:30:15] meaningful set of features and value to our customer base in a way [00:30:20] we had never done before.

[00:30:21] Trisha Price: So I personally appreciate it. Our users and our [00:30:25] customers appreciate it. And I know the listeners will get a lot out of this. So thank you. [00:30:30] 

[00:30:30] Ed Case: Oh, thank you so much for having me on the podcast. Big fan [00:30:35] and yeah, I think it's definitely something that, um. It's [00:30:40] super fun to do. You know, I can't think of, of doing anything else, so yep.

[00:30:46] 

[00:30:46] Trisha Price: Thank you for listening to Hard Calls, the product [00:30:50] podcast, where we share best practices and all the things you need to succeed. If you enjoy [00:30:55] the show today, share with your friends and come back for [00:31:00] more.