[00:00:00] Trisha Price: Hi everyone. I have an exclusive discount for Hard Calls listeners to Pendomonium, Pendo's Product Festival. I would like to invite you to join me in Raleigh, North Carolina from March 24th to 26th, with an exclusive 30% [00:00:15] discount. When you use the code hardcalls30, that's hardcalls, all lowercase, and the numbers three zero.

[00:00:22] Trisha Price: Get your discounted ticket at pendo.io/Pendomonium. See you there. 

[00:00:28] Trisha Price: Taking that back a level [00:00:30] to your product team, how do they think about personalizing experiences for their customers and their craft of product and what data they use to make decisions in the [00:00:45] product on a day-to-day basis? 

[00:00:46] Daniel Haisley: There's an exercise we call the Five Whys.

[00:00:49] Daniel Haisley: So whenever a particular problem comes up and we called into like, all right, look, we need to build a feature to go and solve this problem. We'll sit and we'll play the five whys. Well, [00:01:00] why is that a problem? Well, that's a problem because of this other thing. Well, why is this other thing a problem? And if you do that five times, then you get to the, just a very fundamental issue.

[00:01:12] Daniel Haisley: And then we look to address that [00:01:15] issue. There have been so many times where, if we've forgotten to, to play five why's that we end up solving something that is kind of a surface level problem, but it's not the fundamental issue. [00:01:30] So with all the problems that we come in, we'll we'll sit and we'll play five why's to understand, kinda get to a root cause and then.

[00:01:38] Daniel Haisley: Let's go out and talk to customers. 

[00:01:39] Trisha Price: Hi everyone, and welcome back to Hard Calls, the podcast where we highlight the best [00:01:45] product leaders from across the globe. 

[00:01:46] Trisha Price: If you're new to the show, I'd like to welcome you and invite you to hit follow or subscribe so you can stay up to date with all the latest episodes. On today's show, I am so excited to have Daniel Haisley with me. Daniel is the Senior Vice President of Product Management at CSI, where his responsibilities include leading the vision and delivery of digital banking, account origination, data intelligence, and loan origination solutions. 

[00:02:12] Trisha Price: I was lucky enough to get to know Daniel when I was the Chief Product Officer at nCino.

[00:02:17] Trisha Price: Both of us are based in the same beach town in North Carolina. And we both came from SaaS companies that support the banking industry. After I left nCino and came to Pendo, Daniel and I's [00:02:30] paths were lucky enough to cross again, not only because Aperture, which is where he was the Chief Product Officer, and which is now a part of CSI since their recent acquisition, was a customer of Pendo.

[00:02:42] Trisha Price: But beyond that, we partnered [00:02:45] on their product Data Engage. Daniel and I share a commitment to helping financial institutions and frankly, any company for that matter, with personalization and analytics and achieving outcomes through great products. Thanks for being here, [00:03:00] Daniel. 

[00:03:02] Daniel Haisley: Oh, I'm super excited about this.

[00:03:03] Daniel Haisley: Thank you so much for having me. 

[00:03:04] Trisha Price: We're gonna have fun and I'm excited to just chat today. So, as you know, this is the Hard Calls podcast. And so [00:03:15] before we jump into learning a little bit about you and your view on product and how you've helped the banking industry, we gotta start with your hard call.

[00:03:23] Trisha Price: So, Daniel, tell us a little bit, looking back over your career, [00:03:30] what you know, product leadership, we make hard calls every day. That's our job, and I think it's one of the most fun parts of the job, but also the hardest part of the job. So share with us a hard call that you've had to make and maybe what made it so challenging, but [00:03:45] also how did you make it?

[00:03:46] Daniel Haisley: Yeah. So, I mean, I can think even in recent time, as we've gone through an acquisition and so we were being acquired as part of Aperture being acquired by a larger organization, which was [00:04:00] CSI. 

[00:04:00] Daniel Haisley: And as part of that, we need to go through and kind of unify and create a unified product organization.

[00:04:09] Daniel Haisley: And if I think of the, just the general realm of, problems or challenges [00:04:15] or calls to make. There's always the call of well in the market, what's the, what problem do we want to go and solve? Then there's in a B2B world, particularly how to lean into relationships, [00:04:30] when to, when to be guided, when to guide, what managing those relationships with clients specifically.

[00:04:37] Daniel Haisley: And then third and what I think is most importantly, it's the people. It's the people side of things. 

[00:04:43] Daniel Haisley: So I think one of the hardest calls that which is really just a series of calls that we've had to make over the last three months, is to determine for those people who are like these sorts of acquisitions, they create opportunity.

[00:05:03] Daniel Haisley: And who's ready to take that next step? Who's the kind of super ambitious and, they've they put in time. They're ready to do the next step, or they [00:05:15] think that they're ready to do the next step. And conversely, folks that may, they've been around for a very long time and maybe they know the, know the domain, they know what it is, but aren't.

[00:05:28] Daniel Haisley: Just don't necessarily have the [00:05:30] same kind of fire and they're at a place where they're, they're kind of, they're just comfortable. Setting an org chart and putting people in positions where, I think they can be most successful. And for some people, that's gonna be really stretching [00:05:45] them. For some people it's gonna be just setting expectations of "hey, here's the kind of the bar of excellence and this is what we want to hit."

[00:05:53] Daniel Haisley: That's really challenging. Because we have to, I've had to deliver good news [00:06:00] to folks and I've had to deliver really challenging news to folks and doing that in such a way that, keeps the team aligned, keeps people inspired to go and tackle and kind of meet a shared vision. puts everyone in a [00:06:15] position to challenge the process but still be encouraged to go and do that has been really challenging.

[00:06:21] Trisha Price: I love that. That's your hard call. You know, those of us in product, at the end of the day, we're often doing acquisitions or [00:06:30] being acquired, right? It's a common outcome, often an outcome to be celebrated. So congrats to you and, and the team at Aperture for that outcome. But it does all come down to the people [00:06:45] and the culture that you had and you built successfully that drove your success at Aperture might not be the exact skills and culture that you need as a part of a bigger and different organization of CSI.

[00:06:58] Trisha Price: And so I [00:07:00] think that's such a good topic to bring up because at the end of the day, these products. They're built by people, right? And our people are our biggest asset and our most important asset to take care of. And yeah, delivering the good news is really [00:07:15] fun. But, you know, delivering the bad news, while it's not the most fun thing in the moment, I've always felt like it's also a gift to people.

[00:07:23] Trisha Price: Because if you're not right, if I'm not right for a certain organization, at a certain point in time. [00:07:30] It's better off for everyone in the long run if they can go work and put their skills and time and effort at somewhere where they are the right fit. And while it's a hard call in the moment, I think in the end it makes it better for everybody.

[00:07:44] Daniel Haisley: Yeah, [00:07:45] it, it reminds me, I had a a young lady that I worked with for a number of years, and she was just, you give her the thing, whatever the thing was, and guaranteed she would be able to go and, and knock that out. As smart as you could ask [00:08:00] for, willing to work as hard as you could possibly, like she was fantastic, but swam with a very wide wake. It would would be really challenging for even for clients, but also for coworkers around and in some ways be, [00:08:15] was inhibiting. Yeah, inhibiting the growth of the people a around her. So making the really hard decision to say, I think you have a really bright future in front of you, but that may not be here.[00:08:30] 

[00:08:30] Trisha Price: Yeah. 

[00:08:31] Daniel Haisley: That's a really tough call to make. But I don't, I've never looked back and regretted making those sorts of decisions. To your point, I think it ends ended up being better for everyone [00:08:45] involved, including, and particularly probably, especially for that person. 

[00:08:49] Trisha Price: Yeah, for sure. 

[00:08:51] Trisha Price: Well, Daniel I know Aperture and now CSI, a big part of what you do is to help financial institutions deliver amazing, personalized experience to their customer base. Tell us a little bit about that, your view on, on how you do that, how you've been so successful as a product leader delivering these kinds of solutions. 

[00:09:16] Daniel Haisley: So I can I can talk a little bit about, I mean, I can talk a lot about kinda digital banking and the banking space, but this all correlates to just the broader world that we, we live in.

[00:09:29] Daniel Haisley: Think [00:09:30] of the way banking has worked historically, particularly in the community banking space where, where we have traditionally operated. These banks have competed by physical location of the branches. [00:09:45] And I opened my first account when I was 14, 15 years old at Old National Bank because that's where my parents banked in Evansville, Indiana where I grew up.

[00:09:55] Daniel Haisley: And so naturally that's where I got my first account. And then I move on [00:10:00] and we get to college, I opened an account at Purdue Police's Federal Credit Union, and I move just, and the physical location of the branches kind of drove those sorts of relationships. 

[00:10:10] Daniel Haisley: But that changed dramatically over the last 10, 15 years to where it's not about physical location.

[00:10:19] Daniel Haisley: So what happened was when people walk into the branches and you'd have conversations, you'd establish relationships and rapport with tellers and with people that were running the desk and the branch [00:10:30] managers and so forth, and you'd share information. Going to be graduating, coming up, Hey, saving up I'm going to buy a new vehicle.

[00:10:37] Daniel Haisley: Hey, we're thinking of buying a house. Uh, hey, Maria's pregnant. What it looks like we're, we're expecting and did, and all these life events. [00:10:45] And that helped to develop that relationship and helped them to be able to serve me uniquely. But what happens when people don't walk into branches anymore? 

[00:10:57] Trisha Price: Yeah. And this, how do you give that [00:11:00] same feeling of being welcomed, of knowing us as humans and what's going on in our lives?

[00:11:06] Trisha Price: How do you do that digitally? 

[00:11:09] Daniel Haisley: That's right. And at the end of the day, people want to be treated [00:11:15] and known. For what they are, what's unique to them, what are the unique skills or attributes that they bring to the people around them. So in a world where you're not sharing those data points by having conversations back and forth, [00:11:30] and we can talk about the tenets of that.

[00:11:34] 

[00:11:34] Daniel Haisley: It has to come to data. Like we are really fortunate in the banking space that we have information or like we, we can see where people are voting with their dollars, [00:11:45] where they're spending money. And that's, that is a manifestation of what are the challenges, what's important to them.

[00:11:52] Daniel Haisley: And so to be able to then use that information to helps us out, okay, what's important to this [00:12:00] particular customer, small business owner to the consumer, whomever, and then provide the right message at the right time, at the right place within the user interface, within the experience, wherever that may be is the [00:12:15] overarching goal. To drive everything to be much more personalized than it is today. And I think that that manifests itself well, outside of banking, I, one of the things I love is I get my [00:12:30] Spotify 2025 year wrapped and what did I listen to and. It's all messed up because now my kids are listening to, I'm all Taylor Swift.

[00:12:41] Trisha Price: So your music age is not correct anymore because they've taken [00:12:45] over. 

[00:12:45] Daniel Haisley: Yeah. Yeah. But same thing with YouTube and with these other services, we've become accustomed to these services that have scaled to serve billions. 

[00:12:55] Trisha Price: Yeah. 

[00:12:55] Daniel Haisley: Still knowing us and treating us uniquely based on what's [00:13:00] important to us. Yeah, so, so much of our discussion and so much of what we do as a product organization, say, how can we do that in the domains that we serve, because that's the expectation that's set.

[00:13:12] Trisha Price: So I love how you've taken [00:13:15] data, whether that's through your partnership with Pendo Data Engage, or you know, the banking core data, you get access to, et ceterand really helped financial institutions deliver this personalized experience their customers. I think [00:13:30] that is. Critically important in today's day and age, like you said.

[00:13:33] Trisha Price: And I agree. I think we all, because we have so much experience with digital apps in our day-to-day consumer and business lives, we just expect that today. And I think it's difficult for [00:13:45] banks to deliver without a partnership with someone like Aperture. So congrats to you, for, for being able to do that.

[00:13:52] Trisha Price: Taking that back a level to your product team, how do they think about [00:14:00] personalizing experiences for their customers and their craft of product and what data they use to make decisions in the product on a day-to-day basis? 

[00:14:11] Daniel Haisley: There's an exercise we call the five whys. So [00:14:15] whenever a particular problem comes up, and so we called into like, all right, look, we need to build a feature to go and solve this problem.

[00:14:22] Daniel Haisley: We'll sit and we'll play the five why's. Well, why is that a problem? Well, that's a problem because of this other thing. Well, why is this [00:14:30] other thing a problem? And if you do that five times, then you get to the, just a very fundamental issue. And then we look to address that issue that there have been so many times where if we forgotten to, to play [00:14:45] five whys, that we end up solving something that is kind of a surface level problem, but it's not the the fundamental issue.

[00:14:54] Daniel Haisley: So with all the problems that we come in, we'll we'll sit and we'll play five whys to understand, kinda [00:15:00] get to a root cause and then let's go out and talk to customers. We, we've developed a hypothesis now, so think just scientific method. Alright, we think that this is a problem. Now we'll get to the, alright.

[00:15:14] Daniel Haisley: Is it the [00:15:15] problem that people will pay to solve? Is there value? Is there. Is, is this a problem? And we've been really fortunate to, we're in a B to B2C space, which can, yeah. Can be super challenging at times. but [00:15:30] to be able to go to the financial institutions that we serve and at times actually to their users as well and say, Hey, we think that this is an issue.

[00:15:38] Daniel Haisley: What do you think? And how we go about holding research sessions and we'll, do we have an awesome design [00:15:45] and research team, what they'll do, like card sorting. So we'll have 10 cards. We say, we think these are problems. Put these in the order that you think we should go and address them. And we do that at scale.

[00:15:58] Daniel Haisley: And then you start to get [00:16:00] kind of law of large numbers feedback that helps inform what are the problems that we wanna go and solve. 

[00:16:04] Trisha Price: I love that. And you know. 

[00:16:07] Trisha Price: There's nothing that can replace the importance of knowing our customers and developing really clear product taste and product sense. And that only comes from a deep understanding of your customer, which means we've gotta spend time with them.

[00:16:24] Trisha Price: What about data? How do you think about both qualitative and quantitative data [00:16:30] feeding that process in addition to those super important customer conversations? 

[00:16:37] Daniel Haisley: So, data is the, it's the gold. It's the oil of the [00:16:45] of the 21st century. It's would say is the most valuable asset that a lot of financial institutions have or have access to.

[00:16:55] Daniel Haisley: They're also generally terrible about, about actually being able to unlock the [00:17:00] value from it on behalf of the customers. So for us, data is not something that we kind of get into lightly and ah, we'll just give this a shot. We've been very fastidious about A [00:17:15] in this space, you have to bat a thousand as it relates to data security and governance and, and all of, all of the things that allow us to sleep well at night.

[00:17:24] Daniel Haisley: So get all of the infrastructure in place and then, then it's pulling [00:17:30] in different data sources and, okay I've got, I see how people are traveling through the app or not traveling through the app using the data that we're getting from Pendo. I see the information that's coming in from our account origination solution.

[00:17:42] Daniel Haisley: So I get this, I see [00:17:45] the information that we'll have around like scheduled transfers and where transactions coming through. Now, how do we pull all of this together to identify those opportunities or identify the the needs and then tag those [00:18:00] strategies to go and, and solve. If you don't have the data, it's really difficult to do.

[00:18:06] Daniel Haisley: And what you end up doing is, creating a high level... show me everyone who has a [00:18:15] checking account, but no savings account and go and market a savings account to them. Well, sure. Sure, but that's not, that's not meaningful. 

[00:18:24] Trisha Price: Yeah, it's not personalization, right? 

[00:18:25] Daniel Haisley: No, no, no, no. 

[00:18:26] Trisha Price: Yeah, and so it's, [00:18:30] it's interesting to hear how you use data, how you spend time with customers to really develop that point of view, and then, you know, you then turn around and offer that.

[00:18:42] Trisha Price: Data to your [00:18:45] financial institution customers. You are in a very unique B2B to C sort of type business. You have a very mature and robust product team that understands this type of data, that knows how to [00:19:00] make those decisions. Do the financial institutions that you work with in the to see part have that same level of maturity and, and how do you help them?

[00:19:10] Trisha Price: Think like you do as a product team. 

[00:19:13] Daniel Haisley: Yeah. 

[00:19:13] Daniel Haisley: You, you'll be slow to find any financial institution that says they don't have a data strategy. And oftentimes that's we're, we're setting up a data warehouse. Well. To do what? 

[00:19:24] Trisha Price: Yeah. 

[00:19:24] Daniel Haisley: Uh, and we can help with all of it. 

[00:19:25] Trisha Price: What problem are you gonna solve with that?

[00:19:28] Daniel Haisley: That's exactly right. And we [00:19:30] see that issue as much as anything. You can go and get data analysts and data scientists and business analysts and hydrate these pipelines and get all of your data in order. And, but if you can't, the the biggest two gaps that we see. [00:19:45] 'cause we can, we can provide all of the tooling we can help with, with getting, having the data organized and having it in a usable form. These two problems we see are number one, ownership. So getting through the, [00:20:00] I dunno if it's kind of corporate politics inside of a financial institution that says, well, who should be able to put this sort of a message in front of customers? 

[00:20:09] Trisha Price: Mm-hmm. 

[00:20:09] Daniel Haisley: Where the business lead says, well, I'm responsible for, for the business.

[00:20:13] Daniel Haisley: I've got the P&L so we should, [00:20:15] when Technology says, whoa, this is a technical thing, so we need to make sure that our hands are here. And the Marketing says, whoa, whoa, whoa. We've got the brand, so we all have to be aligned. And what ends up happening is just everyone just said, Ugh, safe and need, and walk away.

[00:20:29] Trisha Price: [00:20:30] How do you help them solve that? Right. How do you help them get out of that paralysis of lack of ownership of, because you can't deliver personalization to their customers. Yeah. If you can't get them through, you know, who owns and can [00:20:45] communicate to them in app, 

[00:20:46] Daniel Haisley: So often they, don't recognize that that's the issue.

[00:20:51] Daniel Haisley: Everyone kind of thinks that everyone else is doing the thing and there's paralysis there. 

[00:20:59] Daniel Haisley: Having executives at these financial institutions that can drive accountability, are aware of, like, aware of the opportunity and can drive accountability, makes such a big difference. And then the, like, the second thing that becomes out of that is, okay, you get all that in place.

[00:21:18] Daniel Haisley: You've got data in place. You, you, you know who's accountable for it. They need to know. The business, they need to know kind of consumer psychology. Yeah. They need to know, need to understand, to be able to focus [00:21:30] on what is the specific problem that you wanna solve. Start with one problem, then to two, then to three, then move on from there.

[00:21:39] Daniel Haisley: And so often what we see is people have just, oh, we need to get our data house in [00:21:45] order. We need to see analytics. We need to get our analytics in place. And have no idea how they're gonna use 'em. No idea what problem they wanna solve with them. 

[00:21:54] Trisha Price: Yeah. 

[00:21:55] Daniel Haisley: So many of our conversations with financial institutions are saying, here's some problems [00:22:00] that we've seen solved elsewhere.

[00:22:02] Daniel Haisley: Try this. Try to go, go and solve that particular thing. You're not getting enough debit card usage. We wanna drive debit card uses. Perfect. Here's where we've seen success elsewhere. Somebody's, [00:22:15] they're a, a micro business, now they're moving to, like a legitimate small business. And so they're gonna get into aach h and wire origination, which can be a little bit more complicated.

[00:22:27] Daniel Haisley: Alright, well let's, let's use data engage and let's put [00:22:30] a video or a walkthrough of the first time they click on this, here's how to use this. but the more granular they can be about. What problem they wanna solve and for whom the more successful they are. 

[00:22:44] Trisha Price: Love [00:22:45] that for these financial institutions that you partner with, you know, you talked about, let's try this.

[00:22:54] Trisha Price: Like they, let's get to the outcome you're trying to solve and I can tell you what best practices are. I can tell you what's [00:23:00] worked for other financial institutions. 

[00:23:02] Trisha Price: But you also talked about that consumer psychology and the best product people who are delivering products to consumers understand experimentation and a culture of trying and a culture of failing fast and iteration and not trying to get to perfection.

[00:23:19] Trisha Price: So are you able to have those kinds of conversations as well with financial institutions? Like it's not the end of the world, we can try this with a small group of people, or are they just paralyzed [00:23:30] with the perfection? 

[00:23:31] Daniel Haisley: Technology has helped in this front so much in the last five to ten years. Because historically to think if you were going to set up an A/B test or something and everybody said, oh yeah, yeah, we A/B test.

[00:23:43] Daniel Haisley: None of them. None of them [00:23:45] actually did. We're gonna AB test this particular thing. It was so much work in order to actually do that. Yeah. Carving off who, how, and then you'd have to upload for this and only how in the world are you gonna run the technology to only show it to this [00:24:00] group and blah. And it was expensive.

[00:24:03] Daniel Haisley: That's not the case anymore. 

[00:24:04] Trisha Price: Yeah. 

[00:24:05] Daniel Haisley: So before, if you are going to go through all of that effort, then it's gonna cost you thousands, tens of thousands or more in order to just run [00:24:15] that basic experiment, AB experiment. Then you were going to measure, measure, measure, measure, measure, cut, and if your cut wasn't straight, you're never going to do it again.

[00:24:28] Daniel Haisley: Whereas today that's [00:24:30] not the case. Yeah. You can iterate on an idea, have it live in 30 minutes. 

[00:24:35] Trisha Price: Yeah. 

[00:24:36] Trisha Price: I mean, you could do that with your, they could use data, engage to try different onboarding, different experiments to try to drive that debit card usage with three different sets of their customer base and see which one works right.

[00:24:50] Trisha Price: Or if you go back to general product. You know, we had the ability to vibe, code and get up real experiences really quick and do experimentation really [00:25:00] quickly as well. Both of those being great solutions depending on what you're trying to experiment with. 

[00:25:06] Daniel Haisley: Yeah. It, so I'm, take it with a little bit of grain of salt. There's still some, we're in the, in the banking space and you need to bat a high [00:25:15] percentage that you, with security and data security and all those things. You can't play around with that in anyway, but. Fa. I wonder if we targeted this kind of group with this sort of a message. Would they originate more card?

[00:25:26] Daniel Haisley: Would they use their card more? Would they open a savings account? [00:25:30] Will they...dude, try it. It's easy. 

[00:25:33] Trisha Price: Yeah. That takes zero engineering effort. 

[00:25:36] Daniel Haisley: That's right. 

[00:25:36] Trisha Price: And trying three different messages. One with video, one without one. That's a three click, one that's a zero. Using different [00:25:45] segments of your user base.

[00:25:47] Trisha Price: And seeing which one works. That's a great sort of noose experiment. Because to your point, you're not introducing any new security risk. You're not introducing any new technology or tools. This is data engage that you're [00:26:00] getting from CSI and Aperture that's already approved and a known quantity yet.

[00:26:06] Trisha Price: Without engineering, you could try to build three different messages and experiments or 10, you know, and, and see which one works and, and gets you [00:26:15] the business outcomes that you're trying to get. 

[00:26:17] Trisha Price: Seems like kind of a no-brainer way for financial institutions to experiment and really take on that product mindset, that B2C data first mindset.

[00:26:30] Daniel Haisley: It's a, it's a culture change where it, it historically is, well, if we don't get 80% clickthrough rate, pick your number, this really high clickthrough rate, then this will have been a failure. We will spend all this time and all this money and so [00:26:45] we don't have to do that anymore. Now we can just go and if nobody clicks it, we say, oh, what did we learn from this?

[00:26:52] Daniel Haisley: We iterate and we get 10% better each time. 

[00:26:55] Trisha Price: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's the thing. You get 2% better, 10% better. [00:27:00] That's remarkable numbers. And to your point, you're not worrying about getting it perfect the first time. You know? And you can roll it out. You can roll it out to such a small subset of the overall population.

[00:27:12] Trisha Price: And then coming back to where we started around [00:27:15] personalization. It's not even just what's the right message in trying a couple and running an experiment to figure out what the right message is. It's figuring out what is the right message for the right person and using [00:27:30] personalization concepts and data.

[00:27:32] Trisha Price: To really drive the perfect message for the perfect person. And so experimentation for these financial institutions needs to your point, not be about, you know, click rates, it needs to be about [00:27:45] the end outcome. Having that product mindset and then delivering different personalized message to different segments of the user base to really drive those outcomes 

[00:27:57] Daniel Haisley: A hundred percent. A hundred percent.[00:28:00] 

[00:28:00] Trisha Price: That's an exciting proposition for financial institutions, especially when you talk about your customer base, which are typically community and regional institutions. These people don't have huge, large data science teams. They don't have, [00:28:15] you know, all of you know the tools brought in that you do and I do.

[00:28:21] Trisha Price: And so for you to be able to package up something like data engage for them, that is a real gift for them to be able to take on a [00:28:30] true product mindset, and I think for the listener of hard call listeners of hard calls who are product people, this is something really interesting, like how do you as a product manager when you're delivering solutions [00:28:45] to an industry.

[00:28:47] Trisha Price: That might not be as technically savvy or have the kinds of technical and R&D budgets and people that we all have as product companies. How can you package up data [00:29:00] partner with different companies to be able to give some sliver of that to your customer base so that they can really focus on outcomes?

[00:29:11] Trisha Price: I think that's a, that's a really interesting general. [00:29:15] Solution and trick for product people to, to really take a step back and think about, you know, we always think about our customers and building and delivering solutions, but like giving them a bit of a tool set so they can drive outcomes, especially if you're [00:29:30] in a B2B to B2C product space, I think is something people don't put enough time into.

[00:29:35] Daniel Haisley: Yeah. 

[00:29:36] Daniel Haisley: The ability to give them the opportunity to differentiate. In some level of a commoditized space, if you give someone an easy way to differentiate themselves and to give their customers an answer to, why should I give my business to you? Why should I bank with you? Why should I use your app? Why should I?

[00:30:01] Daniel Haisley: Because people want to hear their names and they wanna know that you know them uniquely. And so to the extent you're able to put those tools in their hands where they can move fast and they can learn from it, and iterate and, and get better [00:30:15] each time, it's, it is the way of the world. 

[00:30:18] Trisha Price: I love that. 

[00:30:19] Trisha Price: So many traditional businesses over the last decade have been moving from physical to digital.

[00:30:26] Trisha Price: It hasn't stopped. They're also now moving not just to digital, [00:30:30] but to ag agentic experiences and agentic AI. And so for those of us in product who are focused on, you know, deep, deep vertical SAS. And [00:30:45] helping these institutions who are moving from physical to digital understand what personalization means and what product management mindset and what data is needed to be successful in that transformation is, [00:31:00] is a gift that we can give to our customers.

[00:31:02] Trisha Price: And I appreciate the way you guys at Aperture CSI have done that for the banking industry and, appreciate the fact that we've been able to partner on that together. 

[00:31:13] Daniel Haisley: But yeah, it's, [00:31:15] Pendo has been a tremendous partner for us and we've grown and evolved together, and think that the brightest years are certainly ahead.

[00:31:24] Daniel Haisley: So we're in the on, on the right path. 

[00:31:26] Trisha Price: Well, congrats Daniel. Thanks for opening up and [00:31:30] sharing your acquisition story and your hard calls on people through acquisition. I know that's something all of our listeners will relate to. And then for just sharing, not just personalization for the banking industry, but overall product management in the B2B to [00:31:45] see world and helping institutions transform from physical to digital.

[00:31:50] Trisha Price: So thank you for being on Hard Calls and sharing all that today. 

[00:31:53] Daniel Haisley: I love it. Thank you so much for having me. 

[00:31:55] Trisha Price: Thanks. Thank you for listening to Hard Calls, the product [00:32:00] podcast, where we share best practices and all the things you need to succeed. If you enjoyed the show today, share with your friends and come back for more.