[00:00:00] Trisha Price: Hi everyone. I have an exclusive discount for Hard Calls listeners to Pendomonium, Pendo's Product Festival. I would like to invite you to join me in Raleigh, North Carolina from March 24th to 26th with an exclusive 30% [00:00:15] discount when you use the code hardcalls30, that's hard calls all lowercase, and the numbers three zero.

[00:00:22] Trisha Price: Get your discounted ticket at pendo.io/Pendomonium. See you there. 

[00:00:28] Anuar Chapur: It is everyone's problem because it's the [00:00:30] guest problem and when these conversations are hard, the only thing that can help avoid conflict in a conflict avoidant culture is data. And that's something that has been so [00:00:45] helpful.

[00:00:46] Anuar Chapur: Understanding the business through data, or the product through data has been key for sure. So we've been analyzing this much more in the, in the previous two, three years by using [00:01:00] Pendo, Power BI, Amazon Data Lake, and different things for us to really understand. And this has been totally, totally key.

[00:01:10] Anuar Chapur: Because if not, then it looks like a subjective or an opinion, and [00:01:15] then you don't even get to the conversations where you do have to talk about taste. And because not everything is data. But we have to give room to those conversations and start talking only about taste, when it [00:01:30] has to be about taste and from data about data.

[00:01:33] Trisha Price: Hi, I am Trisha Price and welcome back to Hard Calls, the podcast where we bring on the best product leaders from across the globe. Today our guest is Anuar Chapur. [00:01:45] Anuar is the Chief Product and Technology Officer at the Palace Company, which encompasses luxury hospitality properties in Mexico, the Caribbean, Italy and the Maldives. Clearly places we would all love to be right now. [00:02:00] Anuar has spearheaded the transformation from a project-based model to a product operating model within his organization. This has enhanced innovation, customer satisfaction in all of their hotels through leveraging technology. [00:02:15] The strategic shift has significantly contributed to the guest satisfaction, the company's success and the reputation in the luxury hotel sector. I've been eager to have this conversation and discuss how a leading luxury hospitality brand [00:02:30] translates guest experiences into user experiences, and how to discuss AI data, and why the fundamentals of great product management matters most.

[00:02:41] Trisha Price: Anuar, welcome to Hard Calls. 

[00:02:43] Anuar Chapur: Thank you, Trisha. [00:02:45] Great to be here in person myself instead of reference because funny enough, I've been referenced twice in Hard Calls podcast. 

[00:02:54] Trisha Price: Oh yeah. 

[00:02:54] Anuar Chapur: I heard it randomly. 

[00:02:56] Trisha Price: Before we start, tell us about your first time on [00:03:00] Hard Calls podcast. 

[00:03:01] Anuar Chapur: Yeah, I was just listening to the podcast and my idol Marty Cagan mentioned a Mexican company who was trying to transform, and I'm proud enough to say that's the Palace company. [00:03:15] That's me. And the second one was just in your last podcast, which was great with my coach and friend, Gabi Bufrem. 

[00:03:21] Trisha Price: Amazing! So this is actually your third time really being mentioned and now you're a star on the Hard Calls podcast.

[00:03:29] Trisha Price: I [00:03:30] think you're our only guest to date who's been mentioned in three different episodes. So congrats for that, Anuar. 

[00:03:36] Anuar Chapur: Thanks. 

[00:03:37] Trisha Price: I know. 

[00:03:38] Anuar Chapur: Great podcast by the way, and great topic, which is kind of different, but also very interesting. About product. 

[00:03:43] Trisha Price: Thank you. Yeah, and I [00:03:45] think, you know, it's so great that you've been mentioned twice and now you're on here to tell the story because to your point about the Hard Calls podcast, it's a little different.

[00:03:53] Trisha Price: Like we're talking about real life decisions as product leaders that we have to make and it's here to be a [00:04:00] community and to help other people around us. And I love that your friend Gabi has helped you and has helped others, and I hope today's conversation with you helps many other people as well.

[00:04:11] Anuar Chapur: I hope so too. 

[00:04:12] Trisha Price: Well, first off, tell us a little bit [00:04:15] Anuar just about your company, the Palace Company, and your role. 

[00:04:19] Anuar Chapur: Sure, I'll be happy to. The Palace Company is a family Mexican company that started four year, 40 years ago in Cancun and has expanded since all over the [00:04:30] globe. It's a very dynamic and traditional in a way, but also very enthusiastic about innovation and.

[00:04:37] Anuar Chapur: Ways of serving our guests in a better way, which has been very good for us. And we see many, many repetitive clients. [00:04:45] So we always try to find a new way of serving them in the hotels that that they come to. We have different brands, Moon Palace, which is huge resorts in the Mexico and the Caribbean. Palace Resorts, which is smaller hotels at the [00:05:00] beach also, also in Mexico. LeBlanc, which is super high-end luxury with Butler service. Amazing, amazing food and dining options. Although, in all of the hotels, we have very good service that is just an [00:05:15] extra step above. And now with Baglioni Hotels, Italian chain that we acquired two years ago now we have super boutique hotels in the most iconic Italian destinations and in the Maldives.

[00:05:27] Anuar Chapur: So we have a very broad range [00:05:30] of different services with the portfolio and we think that we can give a very boutique and specialized service in massive hotels like the ones that are are in Moon Palace brand by using the [00:05:45] technology and leveraging on that for, for that reason. So it's very interesting to be in product and technology for some, for a company that is not primarily selling technology, which makes it extra interesting.

[00:05:57] Trisha Price: It, it does, and I can't wait to [00:06:00] dig into that a bit more and to hear how you've transformed to the product operating model and how that's translated into success and outcomes for your company. But before we do that. [00:06:15] This is the Hard Calls podcast, and so we like to start every episode with one of the hardest calls you've had to make.

[00:06:22] Trisha Price: So, Anuar, why don't you share with us today, looking back over your career, just what's a really hard call? What made it [00:06:30] challenging and how'd you, how did you decide it? How'd you make the hard call? 

[00:06:35] Anuar Chapur: Yeah, the question I was hoping you would skip. 

[00:06:38] Trisha Price: Never. 

[00:06:40] Anuar Chapur: I like it. So, I mentioned it's a family company and there's [00:06:45] nothing I've desired most since I was a small kid than to be involved with the company having conversations over the table at dinner about with my brothers and my father, about what we can do with the company, how to improve it, and [00:07:00] with technology, once I started in technology, there was a very it, there was a moment where I thought that. I was doing things right. Everyone thought I, I was doing things right, but I really wasn't. So when I [00:07:15] started realizing that. That it was just that we were just focusing on output and that there was no real value in what, what I was doing, and that it literally made no sense for me to come to the office and work.

[00:07:28] Anuar Chapur: I started realizing [00:07:30] that things had to change, but I was the first one to realize it, and those conversations were really, really hard. Because we agreed that we should work on. What my brothers had as ideas of what I should do and with this kind of software, this [00:07:45] new, this new replatform effort or different things.

[00:07:49] Anuar Chapur: But when I started realizing that that was not real, the really the problem, those conversations leveled up. So when I made the hard call [00:08:00] of deciding I am not willing to work this way, and I'd rather stop working in a family company that's that continue coming every day to the office, and yes, yes, have those conversations about what we can do.

[00:08:13] Anuar Chapur: But in the [00:08:15] inside that I am not really driving any value. Uh, I started I, I decided that, and as Gabi said, I said, there's no Plan B, I will not do this this way anymore. [00:08:30] So those conversations were long and hard, but. Over for a, for over a year. But at the end, my stubbornness and having made that hard call in a very clear way kind of [00:08:45] sparked I I believe it sparked uh, a thought in my brother's and the directors of the company's mind that said, maybe he has a reason why he says this.

[00:08:56] Anuar Chapur: And I did have a reason, and I was stubborn about it [00:09:00] because I had this guiding light. Are the books from Marty Cagan and Gabi's coaching that I, that I knew that were the right way and that they were there. I just had to get to the I [00:09:15] light like a boat that, that's coming to an island, which is a metaphor I like.

[00:09:19] Anuar Chapur: But that's certainty, that hard call made and those conversations showing the value and the real reason behind my [00:09:30] stubbornness really. Made an impact in the way we work at the Palace Company and we continue to transform towards the product operating model, which is not a done deal because its always kind.

[00:09:42] Trisha Price: It's never a done deal. Right? I think [00:09:45] product maturity and product transformation is something that. Is an evolution, not a revolution, right? We kind of constantly have to evolve and get better, and that's because our businesses change. [00:10:00] We learn more, but it's also the markets we serve change and the tools change, right?

[00:10:04] Trisha Price: Like with AI, et cetera. So I think it's great that you have that constantly improving mindset and that even though you have transformed, [00:10:15] and you we're gonna talk about what results you got from that. But that you have the mindset that you're not done because we're, we as product people are never done.

[00:10:25] Trisha Price: You don't adopt a product operating model, right? You do, you move to the [00:10:30] product operating model, but you have to constantly invest and get better. 

[00:10:33] Anuar Chapur: And we're always that annoying voice saying that things can be better, done better, that these thi things are not. Totally right, and even though the results are right, the company results, the department results [00:10:45] are, are fine, are good, and are breaking records, we always know that things can be just a little better and that we're always looking for those wrong things that, that we've made so that we can improve them in the future.

[00:10:57] Trisha Price: Well, I love your hard call [00:11:00] and, I mean, what makes it even more special and difficult is not only did you take a physical company and transform it to the product operating model, but you also did it in a family atmosphere, which is [00:11:15] even more complicated. So, congratulations for that. I'd love for you to share a little bit more on how you think about product leadership in a physical [00:11:30] hospitality business like usually when we think about product people, we think about people who are selling software. You're selling physical experiences. So why is transforming to the product operating model or having a [00:11:45] product mindset important in your business? 

[00:11:47] Anuar Chapur: I like this question because it's a very common question, especially for, let's say candidates who maybe don't understand why it would be interesting as a product manager to work in a [00:12:00] hotel, maybe they think that the only thing we do with technology is have WiFi for the, for the guests, but this is, this is totally the other way around. We do so many things to improve and we leveraging technology so much to [00:12:15] improve not only the booking and the digital aspect of the, the guests discovering the hotel and booking it and coming to the hotel, but also the physical experience.

[00:12:25] Anuar Chapur: Yes, we do the first part. We optimize for conversion in the booking engine and we [00:12:30] have done that in a very, very good and efficient way to bring more and more guests. But once they're in the property, we optimize so much for that and, for the guest experience, which is very, very satisfying to see. This is not a [00:12:45] session, a user, a replay.

[00:12:47] Anuar Chapur: This is not a click or a number. This is happiness made through the experience at the hotel. Maybe from making something magical happen, like getting them the table at the [00:13:00] restaurant they haven't dined that while they're at the hotel. So these are very big hotels. 2000, 3000 room hotels, so huge and many, many different restaurants and options to go for dinner. But if [00:13:15] it's high season and the good, the restaurants that are most demanded are already full, and it's a common concern for guests. What we have done in the past is just increase the size of the restaurant. Literally many times we've [00:13:30] either remote. Remodeled the restaurant to change it to a new concept that is more attractive or the ones that are very attractive, expand them if a physical space allows for it.

[00:13:41] Anuar Chapur: So twice the size. So those kinds of things [00:13:45] are the traditional solutions. But what we have started doing is maybe with data optimized for the settings for the times they are at. Maybe show them in the app what they. Can do at the time [00:14:00] where bookings are the most demanded. Maybe a show that is happening somewhere near, so that they are also interested in doing something different than having dinner at 6:30 PM Which is the most demanded time?

[00:14:11] Anuar Chapur: Or if it is full, and they still want to go and they [00:14:15] haven't been to that restaurant, they can, they can go to the app and ask for a be in the waiting list. And we optimize for those guests who have not gone to that restaurant and their checkout is [00:14:30] most near, so that they, so that we assure them a table at that restaurant.

[00:14:35] Anuar Chapur: So magical things happen like that. Without them knowing that, that we're optimizing for it or that little moment in time where you're at the [00:14:45] hotel and you come to the room very tired, and once you're there, you find that the, that the housekeeping staff is cleaning your room. And it's so annoying because you do want it clean, but it's kind of an of an uncomfortable moment.

[00:14:59] Anuar Chapur: [00:15:00] So, we should know that this person is having dinner and. So that we are cleaning the room while they're not there, maybe have them give them a little detail if they had a romantic dinner and there a couple, prepare the jacuzzi for them. Have some [00:15:15] flowers put in the room. Things that can be done only in small boutique hotels, but at scale.

[00:15:22] Anuar Chapur: So technology doesn't replace services, it helps it scale. 

[00:15:27] Trisha Price: I love how you've [00:15:30] built a product. Because the way you're talking and thinking about these experiences, it is a product. It isn't just technology, but I love how you've built a product to really focus on the guest experience. And while the [00:15:45] user interface, the technology, it might not be what guests interact with. Sometimes it might be right, but even though it's not always, everything you do is about making that guest experience amazing. And I know [00:16:00] that you can't do that without significant feedback from the guests themselves, from the people who work. You know, you mentioned the Butlers and all of the people who actually work with the guests.

[00:16:13] Trisha Price: So how do [00:16:15] you build feedback? Into your culture and into your process. 

[00:16:21] Anuar Chapur: And I'm going to get ahead of myself a little bit because I'm sure you'll ask something about AI. And this is, this is a good answer [00:16:30] using AI because this is the first product we did by analyzing the responses of the guests out of our feedback that we had at the end of their stay so that we can categorize it in, in main categories and subcategories and [00:16:45] sentiment and to understand what they're talking about and complaining about or saying that something worked very well so that we can optimize and in that sentiment and improve to know where, where we can improve maybe something outside of the hotel.

[00:16:59] Anuar Chapur: [00:17:00] Transfer from the airport to the, to the hotel or something that we had not think, think about before. And that's one, that's one way. And the other one is micro microservice, micro feedback. Uh, very, very specific times. And [00:17:15] because we want to improve something, maybe they, after having a room service delivered, we can ask how was it the temperature?

[00:17:23] Anuar Chapur: Whatever we're trying to improve, we ask them that micro survey. And that's the data that we, that we [00:17:30] get. But also being super in touch with the clients. If somebody had a problem, reach out as a product and technology team to understand what happened. Being present at the hotels, going there and seeing how they interact with [00:17:45] the staff, the technology, the app, whatever it is.

[00:17:49] Anuar Chapur: We have to be very present and that's something we didn't do before. The people from my team, products and technology had never been to the hotel, or never spoken to a client. And [00:18:00] that's so different now. We, we do speak a lot with them and of course it's a very relaxed scenario with them at the coffee shop at the hotel or at the beach on the pool and it, they're just having a good time.

[00:18:13] Anuar Chapur: So they're super willing to [00:18:15] either give feedback or good recommendations to 

[00:18:18] Trisha Price: Anuar. I love that. As you transformed to the product operating model and transformed your team to thinking about the guest [00:18:30] experience that you've really prioritized time on site and time with customers that's so important for all of us as product managers and the more we use ai, like your example with summarizing the feedback from [00:18:45] surveys.

[00:18:46] Trisha Price: The more we have time to spend with customers and really understand what they're looking for and what makes them happy, and so I think that's really great that you've prioritized that and made that change culturally in your team. [00:19:00] I've heard you talk about this a little bit, which is that in your culture, warmth and hospitality come naturally, right?

[00:19:08] Trisha Price: And not just in your business, but also in Latin American cultures. But I've also heard you say [00:19:15] that healthy conflict and product decisions. Aren't always natural, right? You might wanna agree it might be more culturally normal to agree with everything versus healthy conflict. Well, you and I both [00:19:30] know that you cannot create the best product experiences.

[00:19:33] Trisha Price: You cannot create a true product culture without disagreement and a little bit of conflict here and there. Sometimes a lot, sometimes that's between two product people. [00:19:45] Sometimes that's between product and design, or sometimes it's between product and engineering. So how did you do that? How did you change the culture in your team and create space for disagreement?

[00:19:57] Anuar Chapur: Yeah. and it also happens with [00:20:00] somebody and their boss or somebody and the boss from a different department, maybe, maybe marketing, sales, whatever. So it is. Very common in Latin America to want to be nice with people and yeah, let's not [00:20:15] discuss, I'll say yes and then kind of do it, but instead, instead of just saying, no, this doesn't make any sense, but at the end, the one who suffers is the, the, the guest, the user, the, that person who wanted to just [00:20:30] enjoy their vacation.

[00:20:30] Anuar Chapur: So we had to change that and. It's just a cultural thing. We need to be there and say, let's, let's be able to disagree. Let's have these difficult conversations and let's [00:20:45] not just design something, send it to development and then to production. And if this didn't work, I'll just say that this wasn't my fault, it was somebody else's idea or whatever.

[00:20:58] Anuar Chapur: But that really creates a [00:21:00] lot of problems. So, it's everyone's problem because it's the guest problem and when these conversations are hard, the only thing that can help avoid conflict in a conflict [00:21:15] avoidant culture is data. And that's something that has been so helpful. Understanding the business through data, or the product through data has been key for sure.

[00:21:26] Anuar Chapur: So we've been analyzing this much more in [00:21:30] the, in the previous two, three years by using Pendo, Power BI, Amazon Data Lake, and different things for us to really understand. And this has been totally, totally key because if [00:21:45] not, then it looks like a subjective or an opinion or, and then you don't even get to the conversations where you do have to talk about taste.

[00:21:54] Anuar Chapur: And because not everything is data, but we have to give room to those [00:22:00] conversations and start talking only about taste, when it has to be about taste and from data about data 

[00:22:07] Trisha Price: I agree with you. Data is key and data's key to building [00:22:15] great products. Data is key to your point, to help reduce tension and.

[00:22:21] Trisha Price: A difficult conversation, but at the end of the day, great product managers do have to have taste, they have to have product sense, and some of that [00:22:30] comes from spending time with data, but in my opinion, it mostly comes from obsessing about the guest experience or the end user experience and making sure you're giving your team time for that, which I know you are.

[00:22:42] Trisha Price: So I, I really [00:22:45] agree with you in that combination of a data-driven culture. That allows for robust discussion. And then most importantly, obsessing over our, our end users, or in your case the guests. 

[00:22:59] Anuar Chapur: Or [00:23:00] if you still don't get to an agreement, just watch the user interact with your product and you'll then see, see how things really are.

[00:23:07] Trisha Price: There's one truth really, right? 

[00:23:09] Anuar Chapur: Yeah, exactly. 

[00:23:10] Trisha Price: So Anuar, a couple of years ago at a [00:23:15] Pendo event. I heard Will Guidara speak and he was amazing. And he wrote the book, Unreasonable Hospitality, and he told us so many stories at 11 Madison Park where they went above and [00:23:30] beyond to provide unreasonable hospitality.

[00:23:32] Trisha Price: And we had him speak at our company kickoff and to really set the stage for our company to make sure that that every employee of Pendo. Provides unreasonable [00:23:45] hospitality to our users. And I know this is important to you because you're in the business of hospitality, but tell me, how do you use data? How do you use technology?

[00:23:56] Trisha Price: How do you use product thinking to deliver [00:24:00] unreasonable hospitality? Moments of delight that feel human not automated. 

[00:24:07] Anuar Chapur: I like that and I, I really like Unreasonable Hospitality and also setting the table from Danny Meyer, who they work, who [00:24:15] worked with Will Guidara actually Marty recommended his book to me. And we kind of twisted the, that concept to one of ours, which is coloring moments.

[00:24:27] Anuar Chapur: So we say, procedures are black and [00:24:30] white, but hospitality is colorful. So let's color the moments for our guests and make them feel welcome and let's be hospitable instead of just, being compliant with what we have to do. So [00:24:45] technology can really help, but this really. And so being part of the staff at the hotel. So they have to want to do this.

[00:24:54] Anuar Chapur: We cannot just have robots do things for our guest, at the end. We also think [00:25:00] that an interface is, our interfaces are not just the app, the web, and that it's the staff at the hotel. So we have to give them the tools for that interface to work. So if the way of a, for a [00:25:15] bellboy to check who is coming to the hotel is by asking them, hello, what's your name and what's your reservation number?

[00:25:21] Anuar Chapur: So that I can look into the list of arrivals from an Excel printed spreadsheet. It's a, it's not a [00:25:30] very hospitable way of giving someone, somebody the welcome. If instead we know that. Mr. Chapuri is in van 202, and we know that this is a van that is coming because it says it outside. [00:25:45] We can just give them the welcome by their name and maybe a specific detail that, that we know about their stay or that they have been before or whatever.

[00:25:53] Anuar Chapur: So that's just one really simple example about this. Then there's [00:26:00] some that are totally offline. Totally not about the technology, but really important for us. And I love this story about a kid that was every day playing with the Christmas gifts at the, from the decoration, but the [00:26:15] bellboy saw this kid was paying with it and his mom was saying, "Hey, don't open those gifts. These are decorations." So he by himself went to the Walmart next door and bought a gift and put it inside of the box, [00:26:30] and they told the mom. Let him open the, the gift. So he opened it and he saw the Christmas gift that was made for him.

[00:26:36] Anuar Chapur: So that's so special and that's something that can really be done with excellent human service and also with [00:26:45] procedures not being there, taking all of their time, making, making these different things that. They'll have to do to do their job. So giving space for this magic to happen. And there are some others that are very, very [00:27:00] data driven that like, let's say, which kind of beer this person order at the pool so that we can use this information to put that kind of beer inside their mini bar at the room instead of just having to, instead of just putting one [00:27:15] of each kind.

[00:27:15] Anuar Chapur: So that we know that he has, or he or she has what, what they want. So it's a combination of everything and I really love working in this because we allow for these kind of things to happen. 

[00:27:29] Trisha Price: I love that. [00:27:30] Last, well, I love all of those examples, but as a product person and as a technologist, I really love that last example because what a great.

[00:27:39] Trisha Price: Technical feature that you built, right? Being able to take the data [00:27:45] from the restaurant, the pool, and my ordering preferences, and then proactively provide a physical experience by having that particular beverage in the mini bar, that is such an [00:28:00] amazing connection from the digital to the physical and such a clear way that your product thinking and your investment in technology.

[00:28:09] Trisha Price: Can provide a better physical experience. That is such a clear example [00:28:15] of product thinking, but turning it into the physical experience. 

[00:28:19] Anuar Chapur: Yeah, totally. And the social aspect is one that is very important too. We can't just connect the staff with the guest, we should also connect the guests [00:28:30] between themselves.

[00:28:31] Anuar Chapur: Because guests are there to meet other people to hang around, to maybe make some friends. Maybe the teenager who is bored of their parents wants to meet other teenagers who are there. Also looking for somebody [00:28:45] to play tennis with or golf with, or go to the disco at the hotel, whatever it is. They should be able to connect and we'll not replace human connection with the stuff we say we, I like to say that we [00:29:00] make, we connect people, not replace connections.

[00:29:02] Anuar Chapur: So by connecting people that are, have the same interests and want to. Do things together and maybe make some new friends. We can create a whole sense of community inside of the hotels that [00:29:15] transcends the hotel outside of it so that they want to come back together with the friends they made at, at the hotel and all of that.

[00:29:21] Anuar Chapur: And that's something we want to work on. And also something that Airbnb, for example, which is an amazing [00:29:30] company and product and competitor of ours would not be able to do so. It's something that they want to do with service and experiences, but not at the hospitality or [00:29:45] stay product.

[00:29:46] Anuar Chapur: And that's something that hotels have and an Airbnb would never have. 

[00:29:51] Trisha Price: That is a really cool example because I'm getting ready to go away for. Christmas holiday next week, and I was packing and I put my [00:30:00] pickleball stuff aside and I said to my husband, do you think we'll be able to find some people to play pickleball with next week?

[00:30:07] Trisha Price: So I know that your guests would enjoy an easy way to digitally connect, because I mean, otherwise, what are you gonna do? Go to the pool and ask [00:30:15] everyone there. They look like they play. Or you just go to the pickleball court and hope you find someone right. 

[00:30:20] Anuar Chapur: And there's never, never someone there because nobody would go there to find someone to play with.

[00:30:26] Trisha Price: But if I had an in-app experience, a digital experience where I could [00:30:30] say, Hey, does anyone wanna play around this time? I can see that being great. And then that turns into a friendship where you have dinner that evening or a beer by the pool. So what a great idea. Anuar. I have a little bit of a different question around people.

[00:30:44] Trisha Price: As you [00:30:45] know from listening to Hard Calls, we like to talk about data. We like to talk about product, but at the end of the day, it takes people to build a product and a product team, and you did an amazing job of a transformation and a change of [00:31:00] culture. People is the hardest part of changing culture and changing mindset to product.

[00:31:07] Trisha Price: How did you do that with your team? Did you have to hire a lot of new people? Did you invest in training, bringing in coaches? How did [00:31:15] you change the team's mindset to be product oriented? 

[00:31:20] Anuar Chapur: All of the above and more. So that was actually one of the possible answers that we're going to give about the hard calls because it is a very hard [00:31:30] call to make, to change the leadership team that we had that was optimizing for a software factory instead of a product model, a product company they could not understand that way of working.

[00:31:44] Anuar Chapur: The good [00:31:45] thing is that the engineers, the product managers, the designers were eager for this. They really wanted to make an impact to do things that really were built for something, for something more than just having Jira completed or [00:32:00] whatever. So the hard call was changing all the leadership team.

[00:32:04] Anuar Chapur: So we, for a moment, I rather, I didn't have a leadership team because I'd rather do not have one, than have the [00:32:15] wrong one, so that we are able to really, coach and teach the people, the engineers and the product managers and designers, and data and to be able to do all the things that, that we were able to do, but at the end, that of [00:32:30] course doesn't scale.

[00:32:30] Anuar Chapur: So we now have an amazing CTO that comes from booking.com that has all the experience in the industry, but more than that is very interested in the business, what has very good technical experience and is really helping a lot to [00:32:45] build this amazing product team that, that evolves with the company.

[00:32:50] Anuar Chapur: And that pushes it forward. And the leadership, the leadership team is now fully assembled and now we're hiring so that we [00:33:00] can do all the things that, that we want to do. Some of which we already discussed here and so many, many more, but the team is. Totally key that I could not do it myself.

[00:33:12] Anuar Chapur: I could not do it alone. Even with AI, [00:33:15] it's impossible to make it with good designers who really understand what a client is feeling, what they want to achieve, how this really makes sense with some other thing that is maybe inside of a physical hotel or with, in this [00:33:30] other, other product, how we make a coherent experience that really makes sense.

[00:33:36] Anuar Chapur: And it's super important for us, and we're based in Merida, Mexico, a small town that has a lot of good talent, but [00:33:45] not enough to make it happen. We are recruiting as many people as we can, but people have come from Colombia, from Spain now from Sydney an amazing girl that Marty recommended, recommended to, to contact [00:34:00] us.

[00:34:00] Anuar Chapur: So we're looking for. For people that come can come in and believe in our vision and want to drive the impact in a very different kind of industry that usually don't do product well. [00:34:15] So that's, that's what we've been at and I think that that's my main job to gather an amazing team. And we're, we're on our way for that.

[00:34:24] Trisha Price: I love that. I agree with you. I've always said my number one skill is being able to and [00:34:30] assemble an A plus team and then get everybody rowing in the right direction. 

[00:34:34] Anuar Chapur: That's our product, right? 

[00:34:36] Trisha Price: That's it. That is our product. That's right. And I think when you are. Driving outcomes versus features, that's easier [00:34:45] to do, right?

[00:34:45] Trisha Price: Because you can collect a group of people, you can align on the outcome you're trying to drive, and then because you have trust, because you've assembled an A plus team, you can trust them on the day-to-day features and decisions. And that's what great product people want. They [00:35:00] want to be empowered, but we as leaders have to make sure that we're delivering the outcomes.

[00:35:04] Trisha Price: So the only way to do that is when you have a product mindset and you're product led. 

[00:35:10] Anuar Chapur: For sure. They say it's difficult to operate a restaurant and it is, but to operate. [00:35:15] A hotel chain with so many different kinds of guests and we have over 70 restaurants, so across the whole, the whole across all of the company.

[00:35:25] Anuar Chapur: So how to do that and making sure that in every different [00:35:30] operation things are done well and taking care of from the sales operation membership. All of the different aspects of it, and of course the finance that we cannot forget of, and accountant and all of that. How can this [00:35:45] be done in a proper way, only with a great team that are empowered and capable of making really good decisions by themselves and just making sure that they work together well.

[00:35:56] Trisha Price: That's great. Well, I really appreciate you coming [00:36:00] on the Hard Calls podcast, Anwar. I appreciate you sharing your story of the intersection between the physical experience, the guest experience, and your product, your digital experience. So [00:36:15] I know that our listeners are really gonna enjoy learning from you about Unreasonable Hospitality and all of the.

[00:36:24] Trisha Price: Changes you've made and the transformation you've made. So congratulations to you and your team for [00:36:30] the success, and I'm excited to continue getting to know you and watching your success over the future years. 

[00:36:37] Anuar Chapur: Thank you, Trisha. I enjoyed it. And sorry for the choppy English. Next time I'll, we'll do it in Spanish.

[00:36:43] Anuar Chapur: Well, so I'm more confluent. 

[00:36:44] Trisha Price: Your English [00:36:45] was great. My Spanish is terrible.

[00:36:50] Anuar Chapur: Thank you so much. It was amazing. 

[00:36:52] Trisha Price: Thanks, Anuar. Thank you for listening to Hard Calls, the product podcast, where we share best practices and all the things [00:37:00] you need to succeed. If you enjoyed the show today, share with your friends and come back for more.